What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[grumbler]

It is easy for partisan historians to confuse the relationship between capitalism, industrialization, and environmental degradation.  They are, after all, trying to either exonerate or condemn capitalism and/or "the west" and hang all the blame for the modern world's problems, or deny all the blame for the modern world's problems, on western ideas.  History shows us how sterile such debates are.  Capitalism was not responsible for the severe degradation of the environment of the Soviet Union, nor industrialization for the environmental degradation common to pre-industrial societies. 

Over-exploitation of resources and degradation of the environment is a feature of human societies, not just industrial or capitalist or globalist ones.  Trying to demonize either "Westernism" as a whole or some specific elements of it in order to make political statements is foolish and short-sighted, as is giving "Westernism" as a whole or some specific elements of it a free pass because of other desirable features of the culture.

But most absurd is "whataboutism," where the response to "sectarian violence is high in the Arab world right now" is answered by "but whatabout World War 2, huh?"

As an aside, I have no problem with Islam, myself, and think the problems we are seeing in some Muslim countries are a factor of widespread belief in persecution, not a factor of islam per se.  Islam as a religion isn't without its flaws, of course, but neither is any other religion except, maybe, Sikhism.

[The Brain]

Ethiopia clearly shows how countries would be better if they just hadn't been victims of colonialism (and yes they were briefly occupied in the 30s/40s just like many European countries).

What Ethiopia clearly shows is just how tightly, and densely, the world was interconnected by the 19th century.

[DGuller]

Yeah, when I think of 19th century Ethiopia, the tightness and density of world's interconnectedness is not something that immediately comes to mind.  I'm not sure what Oex's point was there.

[The Minsky Moment]

Given sufficient time, pre-industrial people could do and did do quite a lot of ecological damage.  Industrialization does change the character and intensity of the environmental damage - I don't think that is a controversial statement.

Capitialism could be environmentally protective - it's all a matter of how you allocate those initial Coasian property rights.

[Syt]

Given sufficient time, pre-industrial people could do and did do quite a lot of ecological damage. 

Does this qualify? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_during_the_Roman_period

[The Larch]

Given sufficient time, pre-industrial people could do and did do quite a lot of ecological damage. 

Does this qualify? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_during_the_Roman_period

Some of the Romans' mining practices were also highly destructive, some areas of NW Spain never recovered and were permanently transformed.



That's the Las Médulas area of León, it used to be an open air gold mine, which was exploited through the "Ruina Montum" technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium), which basically consisted in wrecking down entire mountains.

I think it was Mike Duncan in one of his podcasts (don't know if Revolutions or History of Rome) who mentioned the paralelisms between the Romans' exploitation of Hispania for its natural resources with what the Spaniards did in America afterwards.

[Valmy]

He has a mini-series just on the conquest and exploitation of Hispania. It is pretty great...and by that I mean the series not the conquest and exploitation.

I would presume other pre-industrial mining areas have similar issues? I guess I would need people who know something about Asian history to comment.

[Razgovory]

That's the Las Médulas area of León, it used to be an open air gold mine, which was exploited through the "Ruina Montum" technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium), which basically consisted in wrecking down entire mountains.

I think it was Mike Duncan in one of his podcasts (don't know if Revolutions or History of Rome) who mentioned the paralelisms between the Romans' exploitation of Hispania for its natural resources with what the Spaniards did in America afterwards.

There are parts of Bolivia that look like this.

[dps]

Yeah, when I think of 19th century Ethiopia, the tightness and density of world's interconnectedness is not something that immediately comes to mind.  I'm not sure what Oex's point was there.

Perhaps he should elaborate.  I'm not an expert on Ethiopian history, so take this FWIW, but I didn't think it was particularly strongly connected to the economies of the rest of the world in the 1800's, especially before 1868 or so.

[crazy canuck]

He has a mini-series just on the conquest and exploitation of Hispania. It is pretty great...and by that I mean the series not the conquest and exploitation.

I would presume other pre-industrial mining areas have similar issues?

Sure, one need only look at the large slag piles from copper refining near what is now the Jordanian border region dating back to the bronze age.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Man-made ecological problems certainly became more common and wider spread with the Western lead industrial revolution of the 19th century, which is being repeated as that same revolution spreads to the least industrialized countries in the present era.

Even with that, the West is still the best culture to develop in human history. Yes, we face serious environmental challenges. I'd rather face those challenges as modern man, with the benefit of modern industrial science, medical science, communications technology, electrification etc than live in Cro-Magnon era ecologically more "natural" environment with none of those things.

Progress has costs, environmental damage is one of the costs of the progress we've achieved, and it can absolutely be managed. Pointing to it to undermine the concept of Western culture being the best for humanity at least to this point in history, is asinine.

[The Minsky Moment]

Given sufficient time, pre-industrial people could do and did do quite a lot of ecological damage. 

Does this qualify? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_during_the_Roman_period

Yes I was actually thinking of the more general deforestation of the European continent, as it extended past the fall of Rome and into the Middle Ages.

[Syt]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpSi2dbAK2n/?utm_source=ig_twitter_share&igshid=1bfpja555d332

 

[11B4V]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BpSi2dbAK2n/?utm_source=ig_twitter_share&igshid=1bfpja555d332

 

And people still vote for this guy.

[The Minsky Moment]

More attacks on the Fed: https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/411931-the-fed-really-is-crazy-for-undercutting-trump-recovery

Ein Volk, Eine Bank, Ein Trumpf