What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Barrister]

The flaw in that argument is nobody goes to jail is Trump stays in power - Trump controls the DOJ and simply orders nobody to be charged.

So Trump stays in power.. forever?  The nobodies not going to jail develop some kind of an immortality drug? 

Plus, Trump doesn't control the DOJ after noon on January 20th.  The new president orders Trump and everyone who is illegally in the White House to be arrested.  Do you honestly think that everyone in the government will betray their oaths?  That the Secret Service will obey the fake president over the real one?

I don't know.  Not everybody needs to betray their oaths.  You just need enough people to do so.

Plus I can think of ways for Trump to throw the election more-or-less "legally".  Lets say Biden wins Florida, and it's the tipping point.  Florida has unified Republican government at the state level.  The state claims without evidence voter fraud and changes how it selects electors, and just puts up Republicans.

Florida can't change the way they select electors after the election.  The Constitution requires electors to be selected on the designated day.

Election day is set by federal statute, not the Constitution.  All Trump has to do is issue another Executive Order which purports to re-interprete the statute (much like he did for s. 230 of the CDA).

Which is why I don't just want to see Trump defeated.  He needs to be humiliated.  The margin needs to be so large not even his supporters believe his lies about fraud.  The defeat needs to be so bad it repudiates the idea of "Trumpism".

You are not alone there.  I want the Republican defeat to be so resounding that the party itself is discredited and splinters.

I suspect you would find uninterrupted rule by Democrats to be pretty tiresome.  Your country needs two healthy and viable parties.

[grumbler]

I find that the "a coup would be illegal so therefore there cannot be a coup" argument doesn't 100% put the issue to rest.

Didn't work so well for Weimar.  There is a whiff of Weimarism in the American air now, including the dangerous focus on the scope of Presidential emergency authority.

It didn't work out so well for others who went along with the coup, either.  Hitler didn't stay in power forever and payback came at Nuremberg.

[Sheilbh]

And his kind of strawman argument (claiming that my argument is that "America is special") used to be kinda cute... but he wore out that cuteness in about 1995.  Not sure why he thought it would fly in 2020.

But America is special. It's the only country with a presidential system not to have had a coup. Of those coups there are ones where the President revokes or annuls elections and usurps powers.

But there's also the sort of "protective" coups where the military intervenes to protect the system - fair to say militaries have a mixed record on protecting those systems. Those coups normally happen either when there is some sort of breakdown between the branches of power, especially legislature and executive or the President is perceived to be overstepping their bounds especially if they are revoking, annuling or fixing elections.

It feels a little bit like the US is getting less special. Especially if the defence against Trump doing the unthinkable is the unthinkable: the military, secret service, functionaries etc basically resist in various ways. It's entirely right that is in line with their constitutional duties (that's also very common in Latin American states through the years) but it's also a form of coup - arguably you'd have two going on.

[The Brain]

I find that the "a coup would be illegal so therefore there cannot be a coup" argument doesn't 100% put the issue to rest.

Didn't work so well for Weimar.  There is a whiff of Weimarism in the American air now, including the dangerous focus on the scope of Presidential emergency authority.

It didn't work out so well for others who went along with the coup, either.  Hitler didn't stay in power forever and payback came at Nuremberg.

Let me guess: a world war is one of the American checks and balances? All is well then.

[garbon]

Great, but there isn't actually a legal mechanism for it.

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/21/21188152/trump-cancel-november-election-constitution-coronavirus

There isn't a legal mechanism to take funds from the military to fund border fencing but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for suspending the Refugee treaty but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for halting aid appropriations without disclosure but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for banning entry of people of religious grounds but Trump pulled it off for a few weeks before the courts acted.

We have ample precedent now that the President doesn't care a whit about legal mechanisms and only determined opposition and use of counter-mechanisms of power can stop him.

I think Oex's point on this is well taken.  One must consider the possibility and prepare for it. Because an attempt is conceivable.

Why, I think that way leads madness. After all what are you going to do besides perhaps get out of dodge?

[grumbler]

I don't know.  Not everybody needs to betray their oaths.  You just need enough people to do so.

I have no idea what this means.  How can Trump actually run a government if just a few loyalists pretend that he is still president with everyone else obeying the real president?  I note that you are avoiding answering my question about the Secret Service?  Which president do you think they will obey?

Election day is set by federal statute, not the Constitution.  All Trump has to do is issue another Executive Order which purports to re-interprete the statute (much like he did for s. 230 of the CDA).

There is no provision in the existing election law, like there is in s. 230 of the CDA, for a presidential interpretation.  The president has no power to change the date of the elections.

I suspect you would find uninterrupted rule by Democrats to be pretty tiresome.  Your country needs two healthy and viable parties.

I suspect that a rival to the Democratic party would arise, like the Republicans themselves arose after the splintering of the Whigs.  The alternative to "uninterrupted rule by Democrats" is not just the continuation of the broken servile thing that is the Republican Party.  There are genuine conservative and classical liberal values on which an American party could make itself popular and a valid alternative to the Democratic Party, leaving the Republican Party to the fascists, the religious fanatics, and the racial bigots.

[The Brain]

Great, but there isn't actually a legal mechanism for it.

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/21/21188152/trump-cancel-november-election-constitution-coronavirus

There isn't a legal mechanism to take funds from the military to fund border fencing but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for suspending the Refugee treaty but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for halting aid appropriations without disclosure but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for banning entry of people of religious grounds but Trump pulled it off for a few weeks before the courts acted.

We have ample precedent now that the President doesn't care a whit about legal mechanisms and only determined opposition and use of counter-mechanisms of power can stop him.

I think Oex's point on this is well taken.  One must consider the possibility and prepare for it. Because an attempt is conceivable.

Why, I think that way leads madness. After all what are you going to do besides perhaps get out of dodge?

Civic duty isn't two dirty words, garbon.

[grumbler]

But America is special. It's the only country with a presidential system not to have had a coup. Of those coups there are ones where the President revokes or annuls elections and usurps powers.

But there's also the sort of "protective" coups where the military intervenes to protect the system - fair to say militaries have a mixed record on protecting those systems. Those coups normally happen either when there is some sort of breakdown between the branches of power, especially legislature and executive or the President is perceived to be overstepping their bounds especially if they are revoking, annuling or fixing elections.

It feels a little bit like the US is getting less special. Especially if the defence against Trump doing the unthinkable is the unthinkable: the military, secret service, functionaries etc basically resist in various ways. It's entirely right that is in line with their constitutional duties (that's also very common in Latin American states through the years) but it's also a form of coup - arguably you'd have two going on.

It is not "unthinkable" that the military, secret service, functionaries, etc obey the lawful president instead of the ex-president.  It is not only thinkable, but entirely expectable.  Isn't that what you would expect in the UK if, say, the Prime Minister refused to be leave office when his or her successor was named?

[FunkMonk]

I find that the "a coup would be illegal so therefore there cannot be a coup" argument doesn't 100% put the issue to rest.

And when someone makes that argument, you'll be ready!

OK SSBN.

[crazy canuck]

I find that the "a coup would be illegal so therefore there cannot be a coup" argument doesn't 100% put the issue to rest.

Didn't work so well for Weimar.  There is a whiff of Weimarism in the American air now, including the dangerous focus on the scope of Presidential emergency authority.

It didn't work out so well for others who went along with the coup, either.  Hitler didn't stay in power forever and payback came at Nuremberg.

Ok,  so we just need to wait for China to win a war with the US, no problem then.

[Razgovory]

I find that the "a coup would be illegal so therefore there cannot be a coup" argument doesn't 100% put the issue to rest.

Didn't work so well for Weimar.  There is a whiff of Weimarism in the American air now, including the dangerous focus on the scope of Presidential emergency authority.

It didn't work out so well for others who went along with the coup, either.  Hitler didn't stay in power forever and payback came at Nuremberg.

This is the least convincing argument I've ever heard.

[grumbler]

Great, but there isn't actually a legal mechanism for it.

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/21/21188152/trump-cancel-november-election-constitution-coronavirus

There isn't a legal mechanism to take funds from the military to fund border fencing but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for suspending the Refugee treaty but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for halting aid appropriations without disclosure but Trump did it anyways.
There isn't a legal mechanism for banning entry of people of religious grounds but Trump pulled it off for a few weeks before the courts acted.

We have ample precedent now that the President doesn't care a whit about legal mechanisms and only determined opposition and use of counter-mechanisms of power can stop him.

I think Oex's point on this is well taken.  One must consider the possibility and prepare for it. Because an attempt is conceivable.

Are not all of those actions by Trump in the courts right now?  And, isn't it true, in fact, that no new wall construction has been even started?

Trump has claimed to have done a lot of things, but it seems to me that the system is a lot more resilient than the doomsayers would have us believe.  I agree with the idea that Trump may well try to delay his departure from office, but I don't believe the conspiracy theories that say he will succeed because everyone in power will disregard their oaths of office to just go along with it.

[grumbler]

I find that the "a coup would be illegal so therefore there cannot be a coup" argument doesn't 100% put the issue to rest.

Didn't work so well for Weimar.  There is a whiff of Weimarism in the American air now, including the dangerous focus on the scope of Presidential emergency authority.

It didn't work out so well for others who went along with the coup, either.  Hitler didn't stay in power forever and payback came at Nuremberg.

Ok,  so we just need to wait for China to win a war with the US, no problem then.

  Okay....

*backs away slowly*

*turns and flees at high speed*

[Eddie Teach]

Watch it, you'll throw a knee out.

[grumbler]

Watch it, you'll throw a knee out.

I can't afford to throw out any knees.  I only have two, and I need them both.  I'll throw out an old computer, instead.