Detroit thread. Post Kwame, Monica, and $1 houses here.

[Savonarola]

Nothing but the best for the D:

Many City Council candidates have blemished records
David Josar and Christine MacDonald / The Detroit News
Detroit -- Nineteen candidates running for the Detroit City Council owe a combined $2.4 million in unpaid income and property taxes, nearly one in seven has filed for bankruptcy and 12 have lost homes to the bank, according to court, tax and property records.
The names on the Aug. 4 primary ballot also will include three felons, including one who served 81 months in a federal prison for racketeering related to prostitution and another convicted of second-degree murder.

With 167 candidates, voter advocates say ferreting out those with the best qualifications is difficult.

"One thing it says is that democracy is at work where anyone can run for offices," said Dale Thomson, director of the Institute for Local Government at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, which teamed with Detroit Public TV to put candidate interviews on the Internet and on the air.

"But when you have 167 candidates you can't screen them out. I think everyone is pretty passionate, but I also think you have some folks who are just looking for a job."


The majority of the candidates don't have such blemished backgrounds. The records of those who do, however, raise questions about whether they can oversee Detroit's troubled finances if they couldn't successfully manage their lives. The candidates say their experiences give them unique perspective on the city's problems.

Topping the list of those with financial problems is Donald C. Goodson, who, according to liens on file in Wayne and Oakland counties and Arizona, owes $1.44 million in unpaid income tax and unemployment insurance taxes. Goodson also filed for bankruptcy in 1994.

"I hope people can see that while this may have been caused by poor judgment, I work strongly in the community and with community groups," Goodson said.

On the campaign trail, Goodson has touted his 18-plus years of "law enforcement experience" running a company that provides security guards.

He explained the liens by saying he had a contract with another company, but the contract was not enough for him to cover staff salaries and taxes. He chose to pay his employees.

Personal issues
Some miscues have to do with personal behavior.

Walter James Hart Jr., who ran for a council seat in 2005 and now has a nonprofit business training service dogs, spends his time on the campaign trail talking about redemption, something he says he knows about first-hand.

Hart served 81 months in federal prison in the 1990s after being convicted of transporting a 16-year-old girl to Washington, D.C., to "train her" to be a better prostitute. According to the girl's testimony, whenever she gave Hart the money she earned, "I had to bow down to him, kiss his feet, call him 'oh messiah,' tell him, 'I love you oh daddy.'"

He later pleaded guilty to federal racketeering charges for being part of a Detroit-area group that found young women in strip clubs and forcing them into prostitution.

More recently, in 2006, Hart was found guilty in Oakland County court of a felony charge of failure to pay roughly $130,000 in child support. He remains on probation.

"I believe in giving people a second chance," Hart said. "My campaign is about reform. That's what Detroit needs."

Another candidate, Robert L. Webster, the owner of Buffalo Soldier Transport, owes $53,860 in federal taxes, has lost two homes to foreclosure, owes the city $280 for a blight court violation and in April filed for bankruptcy, according to federal and state records. Webster blamed his woes on poor office management and the sluggish economy. "I've had my accountant take care of it, and I'm trying to get caught up," he said.

Then there is Hilanius Phillips, a now-retired longtime city planner, who has a $127,576 federal tax lien and owes $3,126.75 in city and county taxes. Phillips said he was hit with a debilitating medical condition around 2000 that strained his finances and forced him to tap his IRA to help cover nursing care costs.

"I am working to pay everything back," he said, adding that he is refinancing his home to pay off the debts.

Councilwoman Martha Reeves' struggle to get current on her state and federal income taxes has been common knowledge for years. Her liens currently total $209,966. Councilman Kwame Kenyatta walked away from his Rosedale Park home earlier this year after his mortgage payment was set to accelerate to an unaffordable level. And Councilwoman JoAnn Watson recently entered into a property tax repayment plan after it was disclosed recently that her house was unexplainably reassessed at an artificially low level several years ago. All are seeking to return to the council.

Council members earn $81,312 and get free use of a city car.

Federal, state troubles
Overall, nine candidates owe $2,353,341 in unpaid taxes, according to liens. Among them:

• Matthew Naimi, a midtown entrepreneur and resident who operates Recycle Here. He has embraced urban agriculture and cracking down on illegal dumping in his campaign. He owes $406,977.

Naimi said the revenues from his business, which employs about 15 people, have shrunk, resulting in a struggle to pay income and other taxes.

He said he is working out a deal with the Internal Revenue Service in which the agency will get the proceeds of a piece of land he hopes to sell. "When the price of commodities went down, that really hurt," Naimi said. "But that is what being a small business is about. I know about the challenges and I deal with them."

• Saunteel Jenkins, chief of staff for former Council President Maryann Mahaffey. She faces a lien for $6,180 in unpaid federal taxes, interest and penalties. She said the debt is a result of mistake made by her tax-preparer.

Jenkins had a fellowship with National Institute of Mental Health but forgot to report the value of the program as income. She said she is now making monthly payments on the lien.

"When you pay a friend $15 to do your taxes, this is what happens," Jenkins said.

Property tax problems
Eleven candidates owe a total of $84,910 in back property taxes on their homes. And four have cleared their debts since being contacted Friday by The News. According to the county treasurer, among those still in arrears are:

• Arganae Foster tops this group. She owes $25,517.82 on her home on Fiske. She also sought bankruptcy protection in 1998.

Foster, 39, who owns a property management company, said she recently bought the home in the Berry Subdivision Historic District on a land contract from a friend and didn't realize back taxes were owed. She said she's also contesting the assessment because she thinks it's too high, adding she's ready to pay what's owed once it's resolved.

"It's in dispute," said Foster. "It's not something I wanted to avoid, I just want it to be right."

According to land records, Foster bought the property on July 1, 2008, for $330,000.

• Debra Williams owes just under $14,000 in back taxes to the county from 2006, 2007 and 2008.

The single mother of three underestimated the cost of having an adjustable rate mortgage and fell behind in payments, said her spokeswoman, Brenda Moragne. But she is working setting up a payment plan with the county, Moragne said.

"She has no intention of defaulting or walking away from it," Moragne said. "The fact that she didn't ignore it and is taking care of it speaks to her character."

And the experience may just make her a better councilwoman, Moragne argues.

"Since she's gone through the process, she can be more compassionate to others facing these issues."

In addition to Hart, the lengthy ballot contains two others who have served time in prison.

• John Cromer, who was convicted of retail theft and now works to find people jobs, said he has grown from the experience. "A lot of our local politicians have gotten into office and then gone to prison," Cromer said.

• Raphael Johnson, who served time for second-degree murder as a 17-year-old "misguided youth" and now works as a motivational speaker. "I am running for City Council because I owe Detroit," Johnson said. "I want to be used as an asset to get through to the young people."

Twelve candidates have lost their homes at some point either through a sheriff's sale because they could no longer afford the mortgage or because they had forfeited the home to the county after repeated chances to catch up on back taxes.

• Renita Edmonds had lived in a multi-unit apartment in the 1700 block of East Grand Boulevard but decided to turn it over to the bank after her tenants could no longer afford their rent payments, forcing her finances to crumble. "It's a harsh economy," said Edmonds. "But this city can come back.

• Sigmunt Szczepkowski blames a "bad marriage" on the loss of his home in the 13000 block of Charest. While he was married, he mortgaged the house to get the cash to bring his former spouse's dog and son over from Russia. "It wasn't the best decision ... I just let her have anything in the divorce," he said.

• Clinton Griffin Jr. turned the deed for a home at 226 Arden Park over to the bank in lieu of foreclosure in September 2006 for an unpaid mortgage and other fees that had grown to $363,057. Griffin, who works for the city's planning department, said: "We cried when we had to move out. We expected to stay here until after we retired.

He had owned the home since 1985 when he bought it for $82,500, according to Register of Deeds, and in September 2003, took out a mortgage for $343,000. Griffin began having problems after he lost his city job but was then rehired at a $30,000 per year salary cut.

Griffin said he and his wife tried everything they could -- including trying to sell the house for five years -- before doing what they did.

"We did the right thing. We didn't walk away. We worked it out," said Griffin.

• Yolanda Jack lost a rental property on Webb to foreclosure after she lost a job at Home Depot. Eventually she was hired at the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History. While she lost her investment property due to her financial problems, she and her husband found a way to keep their residence. "I was like a lot of people and got caught up in a bad economy," said Jack. "I understand the help people in the city need."

Only 18 people will be on the November ballot; and with 167 on the primary ballot I would expect some odd characters.

[Darth Wagtaros]

This country needs an enema.

[charliebear]

Is that a picture of yours, in your avatar, Charliebear?

No, it isn't.  I recently saw the movie "Seraphine" and was incredibly moved by it.  It is one of her paintings.  I highly recommend seeing the movie.

To keep on topic, Sav and I saw it at the Detroit Film Theatre, which is adjacent to the Detroit Institute of Arts.

[Ed Anger]

This country needs an enema.

Or a dictator to clean out the shit.

[DontSayBanana]

Or a dictator to clean out the shit.

"Heil der Plünger!"

Why does it always end up about shit with you?

[Ed Anger]

Or a dictator to clean out the shit.

"Heil der Plünger!"

Why does it always end up about shit with you?

Because I'm in the can a lot.

[Darth Wagtaros]

A man with a healthy fiber intake is a happy man.

[Ed Anger]

A man with a healthy fiber intake is a happy man.

I eat oatmeal almost every day.

[Ed Anger]

[Savonarola]

I think I may have found the reason why the police department has been so slow to reform:

Feds' police monitor quits; 'personal' ties to Kilpatrick are cited
By DAVID ASHENFELTER AND JOE SWICKARD • Free Press Staff Writers • July 24, 2009

Sheryl Robinson Wood, the federal monitor overseeing the Detroit Police Department's efforts to reform, resigned Thursday because of "meetings of a personal nature" with former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.

U.S. District Judge Julian Cook issued an order today accepting her resignation.

The order said Wood had "engaged in conduct which was totally inconsistent with the terms and conditions of the two consent judgments in this litigation."

He said she had "engaged in undisclosed communications, as well as meetings of a personal nature, with the former City of Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick during the term of the consent judgments, which included inappropriate discussions with him about this lawsuit."

Cook, who is overseeing the police department's consent decree, said he reviewed documents in secret during a July 22 status conference in the case that prompted him to ask Wood about her ability to remain effective.

After a phone call with Wood, and based on a review of the documents, Cook accepted her resignation effective 5 p.m. Thursday.

The order Cook issued today suspended all court monitoring of the department and ordered the city and the Justice Department to submit names of prospective replacements by July 31.


There was no immediate comment from Wood, the Justice Department or city officials.

The Detroit Police Department has been under federal oversight since 2003 when the city signed two agreements with the Justice Department's civil rights division over questionable shootings of civilians, illegal dragnet arrests and inhumane treatment of prisoners. Most of the changes the police department agreed to have not been fulfilled.

Former Detroit Mayor Dennis Archer requested a federal review of the department after a series of stories in the Free Press.

Wood did not respond this afternoon to messages left at her Baltimore office or on her personal cell phone.

The developments took Kilpatrick's lawyer James Thomas by surprise.

"We have no knowledge or understanding of anything related to Judge Cook's order," Thomas said. "We will review the order. But at this point we don't have enough information to make a meaningful comment."

Deputy Mayor Saul Green, who attended a hearing with Wood a week ago before Cook, did not respond to email request for comment.

At the hearing Cook said the city's progress in correcting police department problems was unacceptable. After six years, the department has fulfilled only 39% of the reforms it had agreed to carry out.

Alejandro Miyar, a Department of Justice spokesman in Washington, said, "We're not commenting on that specific removal."

[Savonarola]

A little more information from yesterday's story:

Police monitor had 'personal' meetings with Kilpatrick

Jim Lynch / The Detroit News

Detroit -- The woman charged with monitoring the Detroit Police Department's adherence to a 2003 agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice has submitted her resignation because of her interactions with former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.

Sheryl L. Robinson Wood submitted her resignation to U.S. District Judge Julian Abele Cook Jr. Thursday evening.

Detroit's Police Department has been under federal supervision for six years after a Justice Department investigation found instances of civil rights violations via police brutality, locking up homicide witnesses and keeping unsafe holding cells where prisoners died. An agreement struck between the city and federal investigators called for sweeping changes in the department, and Wood was put in place to ensure they took effect.

Advertisement
But in a court order finalizing the resignation, Cook wrote that Wood "had engaged in conduct which was totally inconsistent with the terms and conditions of the two consent judgments in this litigation."

Cook's order goes on to detail the nature of that conduct.

"It has now become readily apparent to the court that (Wood) had engaged in undisclosed communications, as well as meetings of a personal nature, with the former City of Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick during the term of the consent judgments, which included inappropriate discussions with him about this lawsuit."

Late Friday, Detroit Mayor Dave Bing's office issued a statement on Wood's resignation. "The revelation about the court-appointed monitor is disappointing, and her resignation is appropriate," the statement reads.

"As instructed by Judge Cook, we will work with the Justice Department in selecting a new monitor, and remain dedicated to fulfilling the requirements of the consent decrees."

Wood could not be reached for comment Friday evening. Cook's order calls for the immediate suspension of monitoring activities in the case.

Deputy Mayor Saul Green -- a former U.S. attorney in Detroit -- is scheduled to brief members of the Detroit City Council on Monday afternoon of the circumstances that led to Wood's departure as monitor.

When reached by phone Friday evening, Green declined to give details on the matter.

Detroit City Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel expressed disgust over the latest development.

"I once said that the Kilpatrick administration was rotten to the core. They clearly have a reeking core," she said Friday.

Cockrel said it raised questions about whether Wood had been improperly influenced when she made determinations about the Police Department's progress under the court's eye.

"Has there been anything compromised in terms of the actual consent decree findings?" she said. " Has any of the substance or any of the required changes -- were they influenced positively or negatively by the relationship?"

William Goodman, an attorney who has sued the city over police misconduct, said he was shocked.

"I have had, personally, some questions on why it was taking so long for the monitor to achieve compliance," said Goodman, who attended the last hearing called by Cook. "I am absolutely stunned.

"It's really very sad. What should have been a very enabling process ... has become a scandal and disgrace."

The city has paid Wood's firm more than $10 million in monitoring fees over the past six years.

Goodman said the city should demand the money be returned by Wood and the private company she works for, Kroll Associates, calling Wood's behavior "unethical and outrageous."

"They have obtained money to engage in an arms-length process and gotten much closer than an arms-length process and have benefited from it," Goodman said.

On July 9, Wood's firm received $187,338 from the city of Detroit for the monthly payment ending June 17.

During a recent court hearing called by Cook, he harshly criticized the Police Department's performance in living up to the terms of its agreement.

"I have called this open session of the court because of my extreme displeasure with the progress that has been made," he said. Cook added that the department had met only 39 percent of its compliance goals.

At that time, Wood reported some progress made by the city, including: witnesses no longer being arrested without court approval, reductions in jailhouse deaths and improved officer training.

So that's two mistresses that have cost the city nineteen million dollars so far. 

More of Kwame's texts are being revealed, so there might be more news of this nature in the near future.

[Savonarola]

Texts reveal relationship of fed monitor, Kilpatrick

David Josar, David Shepardson and Leonard N. Fleming / The
Detroit News

Detroit --City leaders are exploring whether they can recoup millions of dollars paid to a federal monitor after text messages revealed she rendezvoused with former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick over at least 18 months.

Officials on Monday said they're exploring legal action after the U.S. Justice Department shared text messages with them showing a "personal relationship" between the former mayor and Sheryl Robinson Wood, who resigned last week as the monitor overseeing Detroit police reforms.

The messages between 2003 and 2005 indicate Wood and Kilpatrick met in Washington, D.C., and "several other cities" for meetings unrelated to a consent decree implemented to curb police abuses, said Saul Green, a city executive who oversees public safety. The city paid the monitor at least $10 million through 2006.

"They showed contacts between the monitor and the former mayor that were inappropriate and also an exchange of information related to the litigation," said Green, who declined to say whether the encounters were intimate.

"It was a personal relationship in which they met, in which they went to dinner."

U.S. Attorney Terry Berg said Monday that he couldn't say if the Justice Department would open an investigation into Wood. He declined to discuss the texts or how the department obtained them.

"This is a serious situation," Berg said.

Green also wouldn't say how the feds obtained the messages, but the development could underscore federal interest in Kilpatrick. He resigned last year and served jail time after text messages indicate he lied during a 2007 police whistle-blower trial about his affair with former chief of staff, Christine Beatty. More than 600,000 messages -- many of which have never been released -- were obtained by Wayne County prosecutors.

Since then, Kilpatrick and his father, Bernard Kilpatrick, have been linked to a federal corruption probe into pay-to-play accusations at City Hall.

City Council briefed
Green, the former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, briefed the City Council for about two hours Monday about the messages with the city's corporation counsel, Krystal A. Crittendon. Some members say they are considering legal action to recoup some of the money they have paid to the federal monitor since 2003.

"Every penny," said Councilwoman Barbara-Rose Collins, who missed the meeting with Green. "I think they should both go to jail for this."

She likened Kilpatrick to Superman's archenemy, Lex Luthor, repeatedly causing trouble for Detroit long after he left.

"He's a master criminal," she said. "His intent is devious. That's what it seems like to me Mr. Kilpatrick has done. We need to know where every penny has gone."

Kilpatrick, who now lives in Texas, couldn't be reached for comment. His criminal attorney, James C. Thomas, said he didn't have enough information to comment.

No one answered the door of Wood's downtown Baltimore home Monday evening.

Wood was selected as monitor in June 2003, roughly when the text messages began, above objections from the council, and has gone to court to increase her compensation.

Kilpatrick "moved heaven and earth to get (her) hired," lobbying "heavily for her," said Councilwoman Sheila Cockrel. At the time, Wood worked for Kroll, an international firm that also implemented a consent decree in Los Angeles. The former federal prosecutor left Kroll to form Venable LLP, with offices in Baltimore and Washington, D.C., since then.

Wood has worked for Kroll as an independent monitor, Kroll said in a statement.

The consent decree, signed to end a class-action suit about police brutality and jail conditions, was supposed to last five months. It's expanded to years as the city struggled to implement procedural changes and capital improvements such as new holding cells. Initially, the monitor's fee was $250 an hour, but she successfully lobbied for a 15 percent pay bump to $287.50 an hour.

Her fees were supposed to decline as the city implemented reforms, but after six years, she found the department had met only 73 of 203 provisions of the decree.

As of June, the monitor was paid $180,000 a month by the city.

Green said the city -- which does not have the text messages -- is now reviewing thousands of pages of billing records and invoices to determine what impact the relationship may have had on the city's progress.

By Friday, the Justice Department and city of Detroit plan to have an interim monitor in place for 30 days. By the end of the month, the two sides hope to agree on a monitor. If they can't, they will each submit a name. The city will accept proposals outlining the costs of monitoring.

Public hearings vowed
Councilwoman Alberta Tinsley-Talabi and several other council members vowed public hearings on the latest scandal.

"There's going to be a thorough investigation of this," Tinsley-Talabi said.

Calls to Wood's offices weren't returned.

Larry Dubin, a University of Detroit-Mercy law professor, said Wood could face legal disciplinary action or criminal charges, which may lead to the city recouping some of the fees.

"It's fair to assume there was a serious inappropriate part of her relationship with Kilpatrick," he said.

The latest scandal began to percolate last Friday when U.S. District Judge Julian Abele Cook, who oversees the consent decree with the U.S. Justice Department, announced that Wood resigned after being confronted with documents that showed she had "meetings of a personal nature" with Kilpatrick. Reaction from the Detroit community was one of muted surprise, given the other revelations regarding Kilpatrick over the past several years.

"Nothing shocks me anymore about this whole text message case; this is just another person who's wrapped up in it," said former Detroit Police Deputy Chief Gary Brown, who won a whistle-blower lawsuit against Kilpatrick that eventually led to the release of the text messages. "It's a shame this saga doesn't seem to end.

"When the mayor has the kind of power that he had, and was acting in such an unethical way, you can have all the checks and balances in the world and it won't stop that type of behavior."

Political consultant Adolph Mongo, once one of Kilpatrick's biggest defenders, said he's baffled about the mayor continuing to "let a lot of people down."

"It's set the city back another decade," he said. "It's going to take a long time to dig us out of this mess."

I'm going to miss Barbara-Rose Collins.   

[Savonarola]

From the Detroit City Hall Insider of the Detroit News:

More woes for council candidate Walter James Hart Jr.
Earlier this week, we told you about the many legal woes of Detroit City Council candidate Walter James Hart Jr. We won't rehash them all here, but let's just say it involved underage girls, prostitution and 81 months in a federal prison.

If he does win - and anything is possible in Detroit politics - there is one perk of office he won't be able to use: the use of a city-owned vehicle.

According to Secretary of State records, Hart's license has been suspended since April 6, 2003, due to a "financial responsibility judgment" in Oakland County Circuit Court.

According to court record for a case filed in 2002, he has a $33,401 judgment stemming from when he had an employee operate his uninsured motor vehicle, which was then involved in an accident.

Because no one in the city of Detroit drives on a suspended license.   

[Savonarola]

Anyone need a laptop?

Conyers quiet on missing office equipment
She didn't respond to letter; attorney denies wrongdoing
BY NAOMI R. PATTON and BEN SCHMITT • FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS • July 31, 2009

Just days before Detroit City Council President Pro Tem Monica Conyers announced her resignation after pleading guilty to a bribery charge, she apparently had two new computers delivered to her office.

And now, city officials say those computers and dozens of other items are missing, and they want them back.

As of Thursday, the laptops and more than $20,000 in additional office equipment — including desktop computers, video cameras and software — remain unaccounted for, according to city officials.

Council President Ken Cockrel Jr. is threatening Conyers with police action if the 29 items discovered missing from her council offices are not returned. He said two laptops were delivered 17 days before she resigned.

Asked whether he has any concerns that Cockrel's allegations could affect her sentencing, Steve Fishman, Conyers' defense attorney, said: "None."

Conyers, facing up to 5 years in prison, is out of town. "She can be wherever she wants to be with permission of the court," he said.

Cockrel Jr. spent Thursday morning hand-delivering a memo to his council colleagues that details the city-owned office equipment missing from Conyers' office.

But it was more than a week ago, on July 23, that Cockrel sent a letter to Conyers, informing her that 29 items, valued at $21,300, were missing from her council offices. He asked her to contact him by Monday to arrange the return of the items.

"If I do not hear from you, the items will be deemed stolen property and I will forward this documentation to the Detroit Police Department and the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office," he wrote.

He received no response.

On Thursday, Conyers' criminal attorney in her federal case, Steve Fishman, denied any wrongdoing by his client.

"Monica Conyers did not take any property belonging to the City of Detroit, nor did she authorize anyone else to do so," Fishman said.

According to a memo sent by Cockrel to the council, Fishman will send Cockrel a written response to his allegations.

Among the missing items were: a MacBook Pro laptop and desktop computers; printers; a camcorder; two digital cameras; digital memory cards; software, and several carrying cases for the laptops and the cameras.

Cockrel attached a full inventory of the missing items to the memo sent to council members.

The inventory was conducted after Cockrel's staff was alerted that computer equipment from Conyers' office was taken from the building June 30, the day Conyers resigned.

In the memo, Cockrel also said some of the laptops were purchased in 2006 and 2008, and that "equipment loss may have taken place over a period of years."

Maria Miller, a spokeswoman for Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy, said her office has not received any communication from Cockrel's office regarding the reported missing items.

Detroit police spokesman John Roach said the department has not received a complaint regarding the matter.

Conyers, wife of U.S. Rep. John Conyers, a Democrat from Detroit, pleaded guilty last month to a federal bribery charge. She has not yet been sentenced by U.S. District Judge Avern Cohn.

U.S. Attorney Terrence Berg, whose office is prosecuting Conyers in the federal case, said Thursday he was not aware of Cockrel's allegations.

Fishman said Conyers is not in Detroit. Gina Balaya, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office, said Conyers does not have any travel restrictions as part of her $10,000 personal bond.

In the weeks since her resignation, former Conyers aide Sam Riddle has been indicted on federal bribery charges, implicating Conyers.

Federal prosecutors allege Riddle and Conyers extorted bribes from people or companies seeking city business, including: $20,000 from a Detroit restaurateur with business before the council and $25,000 from a strip-club owner who wanted the council to approve a license change.

MacBook Pro laptop, for the discriminating career criminal.

[charliebear]

 

Oh for goodness sakes....what's next?