Will the Left Survive the Millennials?

[Valmy]

A lot of it seems a variation on racial quotas to me.  Why the hell can't a haole show me how to eat pho?

In here is a bit about it though I can't copy and paste as website prevents it.

http://www.alternet.org/culture/cultural-appropriation-pho-lionel-shriver-jamie-oliver-marc-jacobs

So what makes cultural exchange different from cultural appropriation? As with most points of cultural contention, the difference is power. In particular, the power of the privileged to borrow and normalize a cultural element of another group, while the appropriated group is often demonized and excluded because of that very cultural element.

Let me point out that not even in this article is the writer consistently applying this standard.

[CountDeMoney]

More of a Texas Gospel fan myself, so I culturally appropriated Blind Willie Johnson by wearing contact lenses.

[Malthus]

Here's a fine example from Garbon's article:

As a Nigerian, I could easily empathize. A few years ago when the popular English chef Jamie Oliver came out with his own recipe for Jollof rice, a West African dish that West Africans themselves debate who makes it the best, many all over the diaspora took to the internet to reject it and let him know, thanks, but no thanks. If Jollof is to be the international sensation it ought to be, it will not be Jamie Oliver who makes it so. (Also, as a Nigerian, I never miss an opportunity to state a truth: Nigerian Jollof is the best. End of story.)

... so this author would rather that a national dish of his country not be popularized, than be popularized by an "English chef". He doesn't appear to realize, or care, that every Nigerian wishing to market this dish outside of West Africa would be better off if it were popularized by a famous English chef: few Westerners are likely to be able to afford Jamie Oliver's cooking, but they are surely more likely to buy "Jollof" from a Nigerian cook if they have heard of it.   

[Valmy]

Again how does his standard apply here? Nigerians are not persecuted for making rice dishes. Vietnamese are not persecuted for eating Vietnamese food.

I will applaud the author for at least putting forth a standard, a way to determine if something is cultural appropriation or not. That is refreshing.

[Berkut]

I guess I can kinda sorta understand garbon's point.

But what he is really talking about is that there is the possibility (even the likelihood) that people in positions of economic power are likely to exploit those in weak economic positions. That happens across the entire spectrum of cultural activity.

When it happens around some facet that we primarily identify as "cultural" - music, food, speech, whatever, we seem to want to call it "cultural appropriation" and think it is some kind of uniquely objectionable crime.

But that is just silly - there is nothing worse about some record label exploiting a black musician because the broader culture has found black culture music desirable and that label executive has the ability to make money off that desirability than some wealthy factory owner being able to exploit some kid working in his fabric factory because shirts are desirable and he has a position of economic power.

These are the same thing, no substantial difference in kind.

The problem though, the practical problem, is the danger that identifying and exaggerating this problem as being different and exceptionally objectionable will never, ever have the effect of making the economically powerful suddenly deciding to generously stop exploiting the weak if they identify a valuable commodity...but it may very well have the effect of just decreasing the actual value of the commodity, which hurts the very people it is intended to help.

If people decide that liking rap is exploitive, that isn't going to help rappers. If people decide that liking pho isn't really cool if you are white, it won't help Vietnamese restaurants. While I am sure people will insist that that is NOT the purpose of their issues, it is the practical effect.

[Berkut]

Here's a fine example from Garbon's article:

As a Nigerian, I could easily empathize. A few years ago when the popular English chef Jamie Oliver came out with his own recipe for Jollof rice, a West African dish that West Africans themselves debate who makes it the best, many all over the diaspora took to the internet to reject it and let him know, thanks, but no thanks. If Jollof is to be the international sensation it ought to be, it will not be Jamie Oliver who makes it so. (Also, as a Nigerian, I never miss an opportunity to state a truth: Nigerian Jollof is the best. End of story.)

... so this author would rather that a national dish of his country not be popularized, than be popularized by an "English chef". He doesn't appear to realize, or care, that every Nigerian wishing to market this dish outside of West Africa would be better off if it were popularized by a famous English chef: few Westerners are likely to be able to afford Jamie Oliver's cooking, but they are surely more likely to buy "Jollof" from a Nigerian cook if they have heard of it.   

Exactly.

If me, being some middle class white guy, decides "Jollof? Isn't that that rice that everyone was complaining about? Sounds tempting...but is this restaurant authentic? Am I being a insensitive oaf if I eat it from some place that isn't "real" enough? Fuck it, I will just have pizza instead..." that sure as hell doesn't help anyone but the pizza guy, who presumably has been so thoroughly appropriated that he doesn't care anymore.

Further....who is to say that "Nigerian Jollof is the best. Period.". That is just silly. For all I know, jollof is this wonderful stuff, but would be 2x better if only it had (insert ingredient X that is not available in Nigeria). Nothing is beyond improvement, and I am 100% confident that jolloff, which I have never even had, did not spring into being exactly as it is served now in Nigeria without being an adaption from some other dish that almost certainly had its origins somewhere other than Nigeria.

Like rice in general.

[Martinus]

I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated.

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I can't. Buddha has blocked me. I think it was after she posted an anti-fat-shaming meme with the caption "Don't let your brain bully your body", and I responded "Well, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?"

[Valmy]

Further....who is to say that "Nigerian Jollof is the best. Period."

I think he was making a joke about how prideful Nigerians are or something.

[Berkut]

Further....who is to say that "Nigerian Jollof is the best. Period."

I think he was making a joke about how prideful Nigerians are or something.

Yeah, I took it as one of those jokes that are not really a joke.

[Admiral Yi]

I think he was making a joke about how prideful Nigerians are or something.

I thought it was a straight line.  It certainly was consistent with the rest of his screed.

[Martinus]

The articles strike me as simple envy and resentment. Which, while understandable, make a bad reason to base a taboo on.

The real question they avoid is: 'so, I now agree cultural appropriation is bad and wrong. What now?'

The obvious answer is 'avoid doing it'. So, no more adoption, or "appropriation", of the culture of the less-privileged 'others'. Great! Problem solved! Only, it won't solve anything. The privileged will remain privileged and the unprivileged will remain unprivileged. Only, everyone will be worse off because culture will be more ghettoized.

The presumption appears to be that if privileged westerners stopped "appropriating", they would somehow pay beaucoup bucks to the non-privileged who "own" the culture in question to gain access to it (who will, presumably, become less unprivileged in the process). No evidence is provided that this would actually happen.

To hell with Shakespeare, Wagner and Mozart.

[Razgovory]

I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated.

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I can't. Buddha has blocked me. I think it was after she posted an anti-fat-shaming meme with the caption "Don't let your brain bully your body", and I responded "Well, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?"

And you block me!

[Martinus]

Cultural appropriation is a vehicle for morons who are ignorant of how culture operates to get indignant about something. It's the sign of inferior mind.

[Martinus]

I love that fahdiz posted this on Facebook and Buddha started to argue with him that cultural appropriation is a real problem that needs to be combated.

Oh, they can handle Facebook but can't handle here?  Fling pooh at them for me, please.

I can't. Buddha has blocked me. I think it was after she posted an anti-fat-shaming meme with the caption "Don't let your brain bully your body", and I responded "Well, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?"

And you block me!

Mainly because you are a creepy stalker.

[The Brain]

To whom?

To people who would like to increase their sales, to people who would like to improve their marketing reach, and to people who are interested in society and how it functions.

That doesn't mean it'll be interesting to you, of course.

Just because you don't sell to a subset of the population doesn't mean that it's worth pursuing that subset.