NFL Week 2: Pretend I posted this already

[Berkut]

Hey Berkut-- since you are here I wanted to run something by you.  In terms of high school rules, the play is dead any time the ball carrier's knee touches the ground, correct?  This also applies to a QB kneel-down toward the end of the game, correct?

Yes* and yes. There is an exception for the holder on a kick though.

The kneel down has some kind of special handling though, depending on the circumstance.

[derspiess]

Hey Berkut-- since you are here I wanted to run something by you.  In terms of high school rules, the play is dead any time the ball carrier's knee touches the ground, correct?  This also applies to a QB kneel-down toward the end of the game, correct?

Yes* and yes. There is an exception for the holder on a kick though.

The kneel down has some kind of special handling though, depending on the circumstance.

Okay, well here's the sitcheeashon:

My son's team was ahead 20-14 late in a contentious away game.  We just got a key first down with about a minute and change left and the other team was down to their last timeout.  So we told our boys to get in the victory formation and have the QB kneel down.  Problem was we never go under center, so neither the QB nor center looked like they knew what they were doing.  So we call a timeout, put our QB back in shotgun, and do the kneel-down that way.

Other team starts complaining that we can't do a kneel-down from a shotgun formation (I know it's weird-looking but I don't see why that would make a difference).  So on the next kneel-down they send their right DE around and clobber our QB after he downed the ball.  Now our QB did not down the ball immediately-- he took a second or two but was clearly down a step or two before the DE gets to him.  DE made no effort to slow down or avoid contact.  One of our coaches politely asks the ref to watch the DE next play.

Next play, same thing.  DE gets an unnecessary roughness penalty called on him this time, which gives us a meaningless first down and 15 meaningless yards.  Other team's coaches and parents totally lose their shit, as if that affected the outcome of the game.

Final play goes without incident as our QB kneeled immediately and nobody him him.  Time expires, we win.

I was in the press box to film the next game and the other team's coaches and were up there still bitching about the penalty, saying the QB is "fair game" if he kneels down in a shotgun formation or does not kneel down immediately.  Now my understanding is that if the ball carrier's knee is down the play is over.  Obviously if he kneels right when the defender is right up on him the defender is not going to be able to stop himself and some contact is to be expected.  That was not the case here-- the other team was claiming they had a free shot at him despite the knee being down.  Obviously this is not the NFL, so I don't see where they were coming from but the other team's coaches, which seemed to be pretty good coaches overall, were adamant about it.

[MadBurgerMaker]

I don't see how the QBs physical location when he gives himself up by taking a knee would matter, regardless of the level they're playing at.    Spread teams that never operate under center do this all the time at the NCAA level to kill the clock, and given the total unfamiliarity of snapping the ball from under center, the spread HS teams must be doing the same thing e: regularly, I mean.

Just my thoughts.  Berk would obviously know for sure.

[Berkut]

Hey Berkut-- since you are here I wanted to run something by you.  In terms of high school rules, the play is dead any time the ball carrier's knee touches the ground, correct?  This also applies to a QB kneel-down toward the end of the game, correct?

Yes* and yes. There is an exception for the holder on a kick though.

The kneel down has some kind of special handling though, depending on the circumstance.

Okay, well here's the sitcheeashon:

My son's team was ahead 20-14 late in a contentious away game.  We just got a key first down with about a minute and change left and the other team was down to their last timeout.  So we told our boys to get in the victory formation and have the QB kneel down.  Problem was we never go under center, so neither the QB nor center looked like they knew what they were doing.  So we call a timeout, put our QB back in shotgun, and do the kneel-down that way.

Other team starts complaining that we can't do a kneel-down from a shotgun formation (I know it's weird-looking but I don't see why that would make a difference).  So on the next kneel-down they send their right DE around and clobber our QB after he downed the ball.  Now our QB did not down the ball immediately-- he took a second or two but was clearly down a step or two before the DE gets to him.  DE made no effort to slow down or avoid contact.  One of our coaches politely asks the ref to watch the DE next play.

Next play, same thing.  DE gets an unnecessary roughness penalty called on him this time, which gives us a meaningless first down and 15 meaningless yards.  Other team's coaches and parents totally lose their shit, as if that affected the outcome of the game.

Final play goes without incident as our QB kneeled immediately and nobody him him.  Time expires, we win.

I was in the press box to film the next game and the other team's coaches and were up there still bitching about the penalty, saying the QB is "fair game" if he kneels down in a shotgun formation or does not kneel down immediately.  Now my understanding is that if the ball carrier's knee is down the play is over.  Obviously if he kneels right when the defender is right up on him the defender is not going to be able to stop himself and some contact is to be expected.  That was not the case here-- the other team was claiming they had a free shot at him despite the knee being down.  Obviously this is not the NFL, so I don't see where they were coming from but the other team's coaches, which seemed to be pretty good coaches overall, were adamant about it.

There is no rule around kneeling down at all, and hence no rule around kneeling down in a shotgun formation.

They might be confused about the rule around intentionally grounding the ball to stop the clock. There is an exception to the intentional grounding rule that excepts a QB taking a snap and immediately spiking the ball to stop the clock (this isn't a intentional grounding even though the IG rules would make it one otherwise). That exception includes the stipulation that the QB takes the snap directly from the center, IE it does not apply to a QB in a shotgun formation. That is, to my recollection, the only circumstance under which the QB being under center or not could matter.

For the scenario above, there is no reason the QB cannot take the snap from shotgun. There is no "rule" about taking a knee, but there is a standard practice that if a team announces they will take a knee, we will tell the defense they should not fire off, and should not hit the QB - but honestly, I only do that if the game is such that there isn't a possible play that could change the outcome. In your case, I would not provide that protection, since the game could potentially still be won by the other team given a turn-over.

So what I would tell them is that they can take a knee, but I won't tell the defense they cannot try to force a fumble. I *do* tell a QB that if he is going to take a knee, he MUST do so immediately - if he wants to stand there (and hence let the clock run) before taking a knee, then if he gets hit it is on him. But that hit still has to be legal in and of itself - his protection is against an otherwise LEGAL hit being applied IF he goes to a knee immediately.

But what you described has nothing to do with any of this, to be honest. You cannot hit someone after they are down regardless of whether or not they have announced they will take a knee. Should have been a flag on that first play, if the hit was clearly after the QB was down.

[Berkut]

That was not the case here-- the other team was claiming they had a free shot at him despite the knee being down.

Fucking youth coaches. Sorry spicey, but this kind of shit just pisses me off.

What would be the point, other than hurting someone? Even if you get a "free shot" at some 10 year old QB, and do...what? If he is down, it won't be a fumble anyway, the ball is dead.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Apparently youth football is way more serious business than I ever thought.  I figured it was limited to a few crazy parents and coaches here and there, but

[derspiess]

That was not the case here-- the other team was claiming they had a free shot at him despite the knee being down.

Fucking youth coaches. Sorry spicey, but this kind of shit just pisses me off.

What would be the point, other than hurting someone? Even if you get a "free shot" at some 10 year old QB, and do...what? If he is down, it won't be a fumble anyway, the ball is dead.

Actually now that I remember it they said "he's open game", not "free shot".  It was one of the parents that said "free shot".  That aside, their head coach was the biggest Rage Monster I've ever seen.  I haven't seen many NFL or college coaches scream that loud.  This team apparently had only lost 3 games since the kids had been playing together, and were completely shocked they lost this game.  We were content to get our narrow victory and meekly GTFO.  Home team parents were a bit hostile and this was in the middle of nowhere.

We'll play this team again in the playoffs or championship.  Should be fun.

[derspiess]

Apparently youth football is way more serious business than I ever thought.  I figured it was limited to a few crazy parents and coaches here and there, but

Varies from area to area, I'm sure.  When I played youth football we'd get phone calls to my house from other teams' parents.  Just to tell us we were going to lose.  Sometimes they'd sprinkle in some threats.  It was like this was all people had going on in their lives.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Varies from area to area, I'm sure.  When I played youth football we'd get phone calls to my house from other teams' parents.  Just to tell us we were going to lose.  Sometimes they'd sprinkle in some threats.  It was like this was all people had going on in their lives.

  That's ridiculous.  That's pretty much the real life version of Peaked in High School Rob Lowe.

[jimmy olsen]

How 'bout them Patriots!

[MadBurgerMaker]

Shitty effort.

[Grey Fox]

BillB is a Football god.

His scheme seem to work better now that there is no ego in the way.

[dps]

Espn.com reporting that Jacoby Brissett injured the thumb on his throwing hand in last night's game.

[Admiral Yi]

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on the causal link between unusual first names and playing quarterback.

[dps]

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on the causal link between unusual first names and playing quarterback.

I dunno.  Let's ask Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas, Bob Griese, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and Tom Brady about it.  Well, the first 2 of those are dead, so ask Steve Young and Phil Simms instead.