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Whither political leanings?

Started by Hamilcar, August 15, 2016, 05:16:59 PM

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Hamilcar

Quote from: Ed Anger on August 17, 2016, 11:20:24 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on August 17, 2016, 11:04:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on August 17, 2016, 11:00:53 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on August 17, 2016, 10:59:16 AM
To be fair, having children is terrible for the environment.

So is genocide then great for it? :hmm: ISIS environmentalists of the year?

No action needed: as humanity gets wealthier and longevity increases, humans have fewer and fewer children.

Not me.

The word to describe you statistically is: anomaly. You weirdo!  :P


Crazy_Ivan80

Quote from: Tamas on August 17, 2016, 04:28:10 AM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 16, 2016, 01:23:21 PM
Quote from: Tamas on August 16, 2016, 06:01:09 AM

The world is in an era of turbulent change for the better.

that is what you (edit: and everyone else, ideally. don't want to vouch for survivalists and such) hope. There are, throughout history, sufficient periods of turbulent change that were not for the better.
We'll know the answer once the turbulence end, but not before.

Maybe, although debatable.

However, in our particular case, the positive impacts are impossible to ignore. Tens if not hundreds of millions are being rised out of poverty, there is an unprecedentedly free flow of information and knowledge that in turns fuels a level of innovation and technological progress unseen in our history.
And it may all come to ruin still. Don't sell the bear's skin before the beast is actually dead. It's a good thing that people all over the planet are becoming richer, but that evolution is not without cost. Especially environmentally. Tech will need to advance by quite a bit still to actually enable everyone to leave abject poverty without killing everyone in the massive ecological cataclysm that would mean. The same goes for the free flow of info: that too has a dark side, given the amount of nonsense and half-truths that are sent into the aether in combination with seems to be a general deterioration of educational standards.. See Trump.
Still: lifting people out of poverty is the humane thing to do so there's no turning back there. And a free information flow is superior to the opposite. Sufficient examples about during the last century.

Quote
Make no mistake: the "let's divide back into nation states and just stop this nonsense of not hating everyone outside of our tribe, because change is bad mkay" people are fighting this. Maybe not directly but in effect they are working toward stopping and reverting this process.
a bit naive don't you think? Humans divide themselves in groups, and they will do so until the end of time. The nation-state isn't going to disappear that fast (if at all. After all: not all cultures are the same, and often have different ideas about how to organise society).
that said: it's not because one favours the nation state that this by definition means "hating everyone outside of the tribe". That is a po-co dogma.

garbon

Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 17, 2016, 02:43:25 PM
a bit naive don't you think? Humans divide themselves in groups, and they will do so until the end of time. The nation-state isn't going to disappear that fast (if at all. After all: not all cultures are the same, and often have different ideas about how to organise society).
that said: it's not because one favours the nation state that this by definition means "hating everyone outside of the tribe". That is a po-co dogma.

Well yes, I can see how a person whose self-identity is tied up in ethnonationalism would be convinced it is something that will be everlasting.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?

The Brain

Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?

Aren't there American alt-right people?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Martinus

Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2016, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?

Aren't there American alt-right people?

There are, but they exult nation state as well, as strange as it sounds.

garbon

Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2016, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?

Aren't there American alt-right people?

Presumably alt-right Americans are not his likeminded fellows.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2016, 03:49:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2016, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?

Aren't there American alt-right people?

Presumably alt-right Americans are not his likeminded fellows.

I think his point is that Americans could not be supporters of a nation state. But alt right Americans strangely are.

garbon

Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:51:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2016, 03:49:30 PM
Quote from: The Brain on August 17, 2016, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?

Aren't there American alt-right people?

Presumably alt-right Americans are not his likeminded fellows.

I think his point is that Americans could not be supporters of a nation state. But alt right Americans strangely are.

Well it just isn't one based on wholly based on ethni...well umm, that's awkward. :D
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Monoriu

Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?


Because the nation state offers stability.  The "like-minded" fellow in New York can change his mind overnight and refuse to group with you.  The farmer can't change his ethnicity for the rest of his life.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2016, 03:55:21 PM
Well it just isn't one based on wholly based on ethni...well umm, that's awkward. :D

Not really - don't they propose some kind of tutelary caste system?
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Martinus

Quote from: Monoriu on August 17, 2016, 04:08:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on August 17, 2016, 03:44:44 PM
I think the concept of the nation state is where I diverge most sharply from the alt right. What an outdated, silly idea. Why on Earth should I feel more familiarity with some semi-literate farmer from Wroclaw, only because we share a language and ethnic ancestry, than a likeminded fellow in New York or Bangladesh?


Because the nation state offers stability.  The "like-minded" fellow in New York can change his mind overnight and refuse to group with you.  The farmer can't change his ethnicity for the rest of his life.

Ok, and?

Sheilbh

Quote from: Monoriu on August 17, 2016, 04:08:40 PM
Because the nation state offers stability.  The "like-minded" fellow in New York can change his mind overnight and refuse to group with you.  The farmer can't change his ethnicity for the rest of his life.
Ethnicity isn't necessarily anything to do with it. The nation state is the best level for decision making we've got yet. We've yet to achieve a genuinely democratic political unit above it. Until then, they matter.
Let's bomb Russia!

garbon

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on August 17, 2016, 04:12:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 17, 2016, 03:55:21 PM
Well it just isn't one based on wholly based on ethni...well umm, that's awkward. :D

Not really - don't they propose some kind of tutelary caste system?

I don't know that much but they don't seem all that keen on ethnic minorities.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.