Acts of Terrorism megathread

[Josquius]

A big part of the problem is not so much the cartoons themselves but the way people who absolutely don't believe in free speech have seized on them as a stick to bash Muslims with. The whole draw Muhammed day thing and all the trolling designed just to wind Muslims up. This angle on things is really keeping this issue alive and ensuring hate constantly begets hate.

[Admiral Yi]

A big part of the problem is not so much the cartoons themselves but the way people who absolutely don't believe in free speech have seized on them as a stick to bash Muslims with. The whole draw Muhammed day thing and all the trolling designed just to wind Muslims up. This angle on things is really keeping this issue alive and ensuring hate constantly begets hate.

I don't see the difference between the two, except for the motive you imputed.

[grumbler]

On the other hand, I do think the history of the perpetrator and the family members arrested with him can legit play a factor in how I judge this crime. He and his family were offered shelter by France from persecution in Russia. Beheading somebody for ideological reason is terrible no matter the wider context, but killing a member of the society for a cultural difference, which had no obligation to take you in but did so anyway, makes it especially hideous in my view.

I, on the other hand, think that slicing a man's throat open for "offending" a long-dead person who never said anything about being offended by this is a hideous thing to do even if you grew up in the same country as the man. 

[Valmy]

The unfortunate things about these terrorist acts is that they're probably going to be successful.  I'm sure there are going to be at least some teachers now self-censoring themselves, not wanting to become involving in the next murder-suicide.

I don't think so. Disrespecting Islam to troll the over-sensitive is practically a sport now thanks to all this nonsense. Any Muslims who think this is how one garners respect is going to be greatly disappointed in the long run. Especially as more and more young Muslims apostasize.

[Valmy]

A big part of the problem is not so much the cartoons themselves but the way people who absolutely don't believe in free speech have seized on them as a stick to bash Muslims with. The whole draw Muhammed day thing and all the trolling designed just to wind Muslims up. This angle on things is really keeping this issue alive and ensuring hate constantly begets hate.

Critisizing Islam is just as acceptable as criticizing any idea.  I agree attacks on Muslims is unacceptable but drawing Mohammed isn't that. But even so, look at all people you bash on a regular. Is that an unacceptable use of your freedom of speech? I don't think so. Bash away.

I love Muslims but they need to tolerate people criticizing their ideas. I think the majority do, and we shouldn't let conservative fanatics dominate the narrative.

[The Brain]

A problem is that for the person involved the number of people who cut your throat has to be zero. If it's more than zero it doesn't make much difference if it's a tiny minority or not.

I'm sure most Irish don't support terrorism, but still every discussion about Northern Ireland and the border seems to take for granted that it's important not to offend the feelings of the terrorists. It is in the nature of terrorism that it has an impact much greater than the small number of terrorists would suggest.

[Sheilbh]

Critisizing Islam is just as acceptable as criticizing any idea.  I agree attacks on Muslims is unacceptable but drawing Mohammed isn't that. But even so, look at all people you bash on a regular. Is that an unacceptable use of your freedom of speech? I don't think so. Bash away.

I query why that needs to happen in schools. I think the rules for free speech are different for a teacher (in school) and a satirical magazine. We restrict acceptable speech in schools in all sorts of ways - and that's right.

Obviously that's no excuse for what happened.

[The Brain]

A problem is that for the person involved the number of people who cut your throat has to be zero. If it's more than zero it doesn't make much difference if it's a tiny minority or not.

I'm sure most Irish don't support terrorism, but still every discussion about Northern Ireland and the border seems to take for granted that it's important not to offend the feelings of the terrorists. It is in the nature of terrorism that it has an impact much greater than the small number of terrorists would suggest.

Thinking a bit more on this... The Irish are strongly associated with terrorism, but that doesn't hurt individual Irish that much because they are associated with a lot of other stuff as well. Nice beer, nice music, weird writers... I think that the relationship between Muslims (as a group) and the West would be greatly improved by the appearance of U2s and similar from the Muslim world (or Riverdances or whatever, the point is main stream impact in the West). PBS documentaries about the rich history of the Muslim world won't achieve this (but I think they serve a purpose), you need active main stream cultural impact. Muslim acts/authors etc from within the West I think are not as helpful in this context, because they may be viewed by people as a cultural hybrid and not being from or of the "real" Muslim world.

[Josquius]

Thinking a bit more on this... The Irish are strongly associated with terrorism, but that doesn't hurt individual Irish that much because they are associated with a lot of other stuff as well.

Now yes. 20 years ago... Less so. In the 20th century there was a hell of a lot of "theres an Irishman next door? Better make sure he blows nothing up. Lolz".

Lest we forget too the key reason so many Muslims were brought over to the UK (and I assume to some extent Germany and some others) is back in the post war era Muslims were seen as the nice, peaceful, hard working side of Asians. Not like those shifty pagan Hindus.

Agreed more broadly that more positive exposure to the "other side" is key. Which ties into the more general problems with inequality in the UK and France.

A big part of the problem is not so much the cartoons themselves but the way people who absolutely don't believe in free speech have seized on them as a stick to bash Muslims with. The whole draw Muhammed day thing and all the trolling designed just to wind Muslims up. This angle on things is really keeping this issue alive and ensuring hate constantly begets hate.

Critisizing Islam is just as acceptable as criticizing any idea.  I agree attacks on Muslims is unacceptable but drawing Mohammed isn't that. But even so, look at all people you bash on a regular. Is that an unacceptable use of your freedom of speech? I don't think so. Bash away.

I love Muslims but they need to tolerate people criticizing their ideas. I think the majority do, and we shouldn't let conservative fanatics dominate the narrative.

There's criticism, then there's trolling.
Big difference between "I disagree with Islam's teaching on x" and saying something which serves no purpose (not even comedy) than trying to piss Muslims (or indeed anyone else) off and incite violence.
The white far right and Islamic far right are parasites. They're in a loop of feeding each other. They both want a religious/ethnic war and are keen to see the other commit as many vile acts as possible to get this.
The white far right want us to take away from shit like this "Fuck Islam. Hurray free speech*"  (*only if it agrees with our free speech) . What we should be taking is "let's find a way to cut down on people being paranoid arse holes about other ethnicities"

[Admiral Yi]

There's criticism, then there's trolling.
Big difference between "I disagree with Islam's teaching on x" and saying something which serves no purpose (not even comedy) than trying to piss Muslims (or indeed anyone else) off and incite violence.

These then would be trolling, correct?

https://www.google.com/search?q=muhammad+cartoons+in+jyllands+posten+2005&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ALeKk029ETHK-pL4766gC0jmQU_8S-_b8Q:1603095980339&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=_97i8EVrQ_MatM%252Cv13w8wVuJ2JsoM%252C%252Fm%252F0b4101&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRV5Md1Ge055x4EBF7dbgdZU-1_uw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOnMvzncDsAhWDU80KHRwKBBUQ_B16BAgVEAM#imgrc=_97i8EVrQ_MatM

And these?

https://www.google.com/search?q=charlie+hebdo+cartoons&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwicgZn8ncDsAhVqjK0KHXtfCtkQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=char&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgAMgoIABCxAxCDARBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgQIABBDMgUIABCxAzIECAAQQzIECAAQQzIFCAAQsQMyBQgAELEDOgQIIxAnOgIIAFDmsgRYhLcEYMDJBGgAcAB4AIABXYgB2AKSAQE0mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=vk2NX5yqF-qYtgX7vqnIDQ&client=firefox-b-1-d

[Josquius]

No idea. I've never read Charlie hebdo and no idea what the others are.
From when I gather CH is a satirical magazine like Private Eye.

[The Brain]

It's a 9 min video from 2012, I don't expect people to watch it, but if anyone's interested I think that this speech by Rowan Atkinson sums up a lot of my general thoughts concerning freedom of expression. It was given in the context of a discussion about UK law, but most of the speech consists of general points valid beyond the UK and beyond law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiqDZlAZygU

[Duque de Bragança]

A big part of the problem is not so much the cartoons themselves but the way people who absolutely don't believe in free speech have seized on them as a stick to bash Muslims with. The whole draw Muhammed day thing and all the trolling designed just to wind Muslims up. This angle on things is really keeping this issue alive and ensuring hate constantly begets hate.

Have you joined the infamous "But brigade" or what?
Irrelevant nearly all the time, specially irrelevant actually now. Cartoons were reprinted by Charlie Hebdo, a satirical leftist weekly, and the murdered teacher was using the cartoons on a class about freedom of speech, not forcing anyone to watch them.
The teacher was the one bashed online by a notorious islamist, Abdelhakim Sefrioui, plus an islamist concerned parent calling him, among other epithets, a thug (voyou).
Said islamist concerned parent has of one of his half-sisters who went to Syria to join Daesh and is the target of search warrant by an anti-terrorist judge, according to Mr Ricard, national anti-terrorist attorney.

French media such as Le Figaro gave more info about the perpetrator:
He already several arrests as a minor by the police yet was given refugee status for 10 years, in March of this year.

He also paid (hundred euros or so) pupils of junior high school (collège) to designate the teacher, as part of his reconnaissance work before the attack since he was not from the region (Île-de-France), and was registered as living in Évreux (Normandie). Not too far from the area though.
Yet he was also member of an Eragny gang, including islamist in an anti-terrorist watchlist (fiche S in French).
Eragny is nearby Conflans-Sainte-Honorine.

Ten people under arrest right now, including the parents, grandfather and brother of the perpetrator, plus the islamist preacher Abdelhakim Sefrioui, founder of the pro-Hamas Cheikh Yassin collective, also infamous for organizing demonstrations during months in front of Hassen Chalgoumi's mosque in Drancy. The latter imam is deemed "pro-jewish" by islamists for inter-faith dialogue and tolerance with Jews...

https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/un-professeur-d-histoire-decapite-pres-de-paris-le-parquet-antiterroriste-saisi-20201016

[mongers]

A big part of the problem is not so much the cartoons themselves but the way people who absolutely don't believe in free speech have seized on them as a stick to bash Muslims with. The whole draw Muhammed day thing and all the trolling designed just to wind Muslims up. This angle on things is really keeping this issue alive and ensuring hate constantly begets hate.

Have you joined the infamous "But brigade" or what?
Irrelevant nearly all the time, specially irrelevant actually now. Cartoons were reprinted by Charlie Hebdo, a satirical leftist weekly, and the murdered teacher was using the cartoons on a class about freedom of speech, not forcing anyone to watch them.
The teacher was the one bashed online by a notorious islamist, Abdelhakim Sefrioui, plus an islamist concerned parent calling him, among other epithets, a thug (voyou).
Said islamist concerned parent has of his half-sisters who went to Syria to join Daesh and is the target of search warrant by an anti-terrorist judge, according to Mr Ricard national anti-terrorist attorney.

French media such as Le Figaro gave more info about the perpetrator:
He already several arrests as a minor by the police yet was given refugee status for 10 years, in March of this year.

He also paid (hundred euros or so) pupils of junior high school (collège) to designate the teacher, as part of his reconnaissance work before the attack since he was not from the region (Île-de-France), and was registered as living in Évreux (Normandie). Not too far from the area though.
Yet he was also member of an Eragny gang, including islamist in an anti-terrorist watchlist (fiche S in French).
Eragny is nearby Conflans-Sainte-Honorine.

Ten people under arrest right now, including the parents, grandfather and brother of the perpetrator, plus the islamist preacher Abdelhakim Sefrioui, founder of the pro-Hamas Cheikh Yassin collective, also infamous for organizing demonstrations during months in front of Hassen Chalgoumi's mosque in Drancy. The latter imam is deemed "pro-jewish" by islamists for inter-faith dialogue and tolerance with Jews...

https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/un-professeur-d-histoire-decapite-pres-de-paris-le-parquet-antiterroriste-saisi-20201016

Thanks for info Duque, but clearly these people were just being trolled into violence by intolerant people.

[Josquius]

Not understanding my being quoted in there duque. But brigade?