The real message of Brexit (IMO)

[Berkut]

We have a representative form of government for a reason. Questions of this sort should never be left to a referendum - they are too complex to answer with simple "yes/no" answers.


The problem with this is that when the people start thinking that those representing them aren't really representing their interests anymore, but rather the interests of thoswho fund them, you are going to have this disconnect between the sovereign people and their representatives.


And that is going to leave a gap where the Brexiters and Trumps of the world are very, very happy to exist - they are feeding on the lowest common denominator of mass democracy. They are truly what those who founded our Republics feared when it comes to rule of the masses.


Referendums are foolish - but even more so in a political climate where there isn't any discernible connection between the "representatives" and the people.

[garbon]

I think you need to start a third Brexit thread of your own to really be effectual.

[Berkut]

This thread is not really about Brexit. Feel free to not post in it if you find it overwhelming.

[11B4V]

Which is the real breakfast thread.

[11B4V]

 

This thread is not really about Brexit. Feel free to not post in it if you find it overwhelming.

[garbon]

This thread is not really about Brexit. Feel free to not post in it if you find it overwhelming.

Then why'd you put Brexit in the title, Tim?

[fromtia]

Yes and no. I'm in a bit of a quandary, as I'm horrified by the result ( my parents just stripped their grandchildren of the freedom to live and work in 27 countries because: foreigners) but am in favor of as much democracy as possible.

Having a referendum of this scale inside a not very good version of a sort of democracy like the UK might not be a very good idea, especially with a simple binary choice over a rather complex idea.

Although horrified personally, there's also a part of me that is quite delighted to see that the British political class has lost control of the outcome for a minute and been handed something of a bloody nose by an angry and poorly represented electorate.

Also fascinated to see if the people who angrily resisted rule by a distant unaccountable foreign elite will now rally and equally determinedly resist rule by a slightly less distant unaccountable domestic elite. Perhaps they will take back control in a far reaching reform and restructuring of the UK's democratic institutions. Or perhaps not.

[crazy canuck]

I agree with you Berkut, referendums are a terrible way to resolve complex policy issues.

[Hamilcar]

Referenda work *just fine* in Switzerland, where the populace is educated on the issues and has deep experience with handling major political decisions.

[crazy canuck]

Referenda work *just fine* in Switzerland, where the populace is educated on the issues and has deep experience with handling major political decisions.

How does one judge when a populace is well educated on the issues?

[Hamilcar]

Referenda work *just fine* in Switzerland, where the populace is educated on the issues and has deep experience with handling major political decisions.

How does one judge when a populace is well educated on the issues?

High rate of sensible outcomes. Example: a recent vote to extend everyone's right to paid vacation from 4 to 5 weeks failed. People were very cognizant that the economic damage outweighed the leisure time benefit.

[crazy canuck]

If the outcome has an objective sensible outcome, why bother with the expense and risk of a referendum?

[Hamilcar]

If the outcome has an objective sensible outcome, why bother with the expense and risk of a referendum?

I'm not interested in playing the Yi game.

[Valmy]

If you can show me another example of the Swiss form of government working anywhere please let me know. From what I can see people have been trying to replicate it for centuries and it has never worked. Sort of like non-USA countries trying to imitate our strong executive.

Besides did they not also have a similar result to a similar referendum lately about shutting down the free movement stuff? Or maybe that was the correct decision, I don't know much about it.

As anybody can tell from my posts in the Brexit thread I absolutely agree with Berkut on this. I live in a Referendum-happy state and generally it produces terrible results, both for the decisions reached and the perverse effect of representatives not wanting to actually make decisions. This kind of direct democracy has been pretty disastrous for California as well. But in the case of Texas and California these are fairly minor issues of state and local government. If the US was referendum happy we would have ceased to exist well before Napoleon was shipped off to Saint Helena.

Adopting this form of government is the death knell from the UK. Sad.

[Josquius]

The English speaking world in general needs to move away from this binary politics. Even the campaigning for brexit showed it has really gone too far.

But then we have less chance than ever of getting AV or some other system so.... the English speaking world is doomed.