The real message of Brexit (IMO)

[Sheilbh]

1. Promise to hold a conscience vote on whether or not to hold an EU in/out referendum. If that doesn't have a majority, then it shouldn't be held, simple reality.

Membership of the EU will be a conscience issue for some MPs who feel very strongly about it (eg. Labour outers) but it should be something the main parties actually have policies on and generally try to whip the results. I think free votes are best left for moral issues like abortion or the death penalty, not what you've all said is a complicated issue of membership of a customs union.

By contrast I don't think those moral issues, or issues of rights should ever go to a referendum.

Cameron himself did not support Brexit, but supported the referendum. That's ass backwards, he should've said that their roles as MPs means they should recognize the desire of people to debate the issue--and to hold a free vote in Parliament on whether a referendum should be held. Instead he brow-beat many remain conservatives to support the referendum as a political ploy to deflate an attack on his party's power base from the UKIP. A gravely stupid move, and probably unnecessary, since it looks like UKIP doesn't just grab disaffected Tories in any case.

That's not entirely fair. Europe ended the career of Thatcher, Major and now Cameron. It was the reason why the Tories chose such hopeless leaders as Hague and IDS. It isn't the threat from UKIP which initially mainly hit the Tories that got them worried, it's been the major division in the party since Maastricht at the earliest. I would guess that most Tory MPs voted Leave (even a few who were publicly Remain) and the Tory grassroots were mostly Leave.

Cameron won the leadership through a campaign that was all very optimistic and cheerful - but strongly Eurosceptic, so he pulled the Tories out the European People's Party and founded their own group with some fairly dodgy Eastern European parties like Law and Order. Cameron himself has always been fairly Eurosceptic it was one of the reasons the party tolerated him 'modernising' them on social issues and, initially, proposing to match Labour's economic plans. In 2013 a large part of the reason he promised a renegotiation followed by a referendum was UKIP but internal party demands having had to compromise on lots as part of the coalition were also present. He doesn't take all the blame for the rest of Europe not thinking he could really lose this vote.

The other thing is the idea of a European referendum has been percolating for a while. Tony Blair promised one on the constitution, which he would've lost. But luckily the French and the Dutch ended that. Cameron promised one on any further treaty changes. Gordon Brown signed Lisbon (behind closed doors, not at the main ceremony) and said it wasn't anything like the constitution so there was no need to have a referendum. The 2010 Lib Dems said that we should put the issue to rest forever by having a referendum on whether we're in, in which case we're committed members, or out. When Cameron won in 2010 there was a lot of pressure for a referendum on Lisbon by the Tory grassroots and a lot of anger when he very sensibly said it's already been signed. So this has been building for some time and it's out of popular pressure as well. It's still a bit of a shock but leaving the EU has been in the UK mainstream for the past 20-25 years.

[Berkut]

The complexity of join and leave seem pretty comparable to me.

I don't think that is the case at all. Undoing a union is a hell of a lot harder than getting in to begin with...


Getting divorced is a hell of a lot more complicated than getting married.

[11B4V]

 

True enough. Easy to get married, divorces can be brutal.

[Grallon]

I agree with you Berkut, referendums are a terrible way to resolve complex policy issues.

   


As if the people were nothing but a hodge-podge of imbeciles we shouldn't consult.  Is it any wonder they so often turn against your kind?



G.

[Siege]

We have a representative form of government for a reason. Questions of this sort should never be left to a referendum - they are too complex to answer with simple "yes/no" answers.


The problem with this is that when the people start thinking that those representing them aren't really representing their interests anymore, but rather the interests of thoswho fund them, you are going to have this disconnect between the sovereign people and their representatives.


And that is going to leave a gap where the Brexiters and Trumps of the world are very, very happy to exist - they are feeding on the lowest common denominator of mass democracy. They are truly what those who founded our Republics feared when it comes to rule of the masses.


Referendums are foolish - but even more so in a political climate where there isn't any discernible connection between the "representatives" and the people.

Absolute monarchy FTW?

Berk, you are a fucking retard.
What really happened is that free people don't want no bureocrats in Brussels dictating policy to their countries.
EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU, and the globalized world the elites in the West want to create only benefits the elite, not the hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizens of the western countries being overrun by 3rd world immigration.

Suck it up and accept that the people has spoken. And come this novemenber, get ready to begin the rebuilding of America and the reset of the last 8 years of "fundamental transformation".

Democracy FTW!

[Admiral Yi]

Absolute monarchy FTW?

Berk, you are a fucking retard.
What really happened is that free people don't want no bureocrats in Brussels dictating policy to their countries.
EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU, and the globalized world the elites in the West want to create only benefits the elite, not the hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizens of the western countries being overrun by 3rd world immigration.

Suck it up and accept that the people has spoken. And come this novemenber, get ready to begin the rebuilding of America and the reset of the last 8 years of "fundamental transformation".

Democracy FTW!

You're a bot dude.

[Siege]

Absolute monarchy FTW?

Berk, you are a fucking retard.
What really happened is that free people don't want no bureocrats in Brussels dictating policy to their countries.
EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU, and the globalized world the elites in the West want to create only benefits the elite, not the hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizens of the western countries being overrun by 3rd world immigration.

Suck it up and accept that the people has spoken. And come this novemenber, get ready to begin the rebuilding of America and the reset of the last 8 years of "fundamental transformation".

Democracy FTW!

You're a bot dude.

Wat the hell is that?

[Admiral Yi]

Wat the hell is that?

Software that automatically duplicates pre-set functions on the internet.

[OttoVonBismarck]

He's a good example of why you shouldn't spend too much time in combat, probably has had 5-6 TBIs on top of intrinsic low IQ.

[Habbaku]

I miss the old Siege, who told us fun stories, occasionally had drunken ramblings.  The new Siege just parrots Breitbart. 

[Siege]

Wat the hell is that?

Software that automatically duplicates pre-set functions on the internet.

Sorry bro, i don;t have much times to post these days.
I know Valmy is pissed off because I don't respond to his posts. Some others probably feel the same way.
I can only drive-by-post. I read an interesting thread and say my opinion, Siege Style (tm), but I cannot engage in real conversations the way we used to. Too friggin busy. I am in the middle of my PCS move to Fort Benning, and I normally post from my phone. This is the first time I have opened my laptop in ages.

[crazy canuck]

I agree with you Berkut, referendums are a terrible way to resolve complex policy issues.

   


As if the people were nothing but a hodge-podge of imbeciles we shouldn't consult.  Is it any wonder they so often turn against your kind?



G.

The nice thing about general elections is that people have a variety of things to consider when casting their ballot.   I understand why you feel aggrieved by that sort of process being a one issue person yourself.

[Admiral Yi]

Sorry bro, i don;t have much times to post these days.
I know Valmy is pissed off because I don't respond to his posts. Some others probably feel the same way.
I can only drive-by-post. I read an interesting thread and say my opinion, Siege Style (tm), but I cannot engage in real conversations the way we used to. Too friggin busy. I am in the middle of my PCS move to Fort Benning, and I normally post from my phone. This is the first time I have opened my laptop in ages.

Human contact!

That's cool dude, but seriously lose the Breitbart boilerplate.

[Valmy]

As if the people were nothing but a hodge-podge of imbeciles we shouldn't consult.  Is it any wonder they so often turn against your kind?

They should be consulted. But not in a way that has led to disaster for centuries. Generally doing the same bad idea over and over again expecting a different result is not smart.

I haven't seen the voters of Canada turn against the CC's kind much. What is his kind anyway? Basketball fans?

[Valmy]

I know Valmy is pissed off because I don't respond to his posts. Some others probably feel the same way.
I can only drive-by-post. I read an interesting thread and say my opinion, Siege Style (tm), but I cannot engage in real conversations the way we used to. Too friggin busy. I am in the middle of my PCS move to Fort Benning, and I normally post from my phone. This is the first time I have opened my laptop in ages.

It is just frustrating. You come in posting some stuff that I want to talk to you about. I respond and then nothing. Then a few days later you pop in again saying basically the same stuff as if I never posted a rebuttal