Jesus' Wife?

[Martinus]

Agreed. Berk is right. The church (the bride of Christ) matters, not personal identity (this isn't gender for God's sake) and the beliefs of the church were clarified by the early councils. If you are outside of that you're not a Christian, you're outside the church.

So, sorry unitarians (heretics), Mormons (heathenish heretics) and all the rest, but it's been pretty clear for 1800 years, extra ecclesiam nulla salus. If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity you'd be better off trying to get associate membership ofa the ummah than the church.

Actually, it's exactly like gender. It has been pretty clear for 1800 years too.

[garbon]

If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity

Well if there was some sort of neo-Arian movement, I'd think that would still be broadly described as Christian.

[Sheilbh]

Over my cold dead body they would

[Malthus]

Languish: last forum for the Christological Controversies in the modern world. 

http://www.ritchies.net/p2wk4.htm

At least we aren't exiling or burning those with the "wrong" answers ... yet.

[Razgovory]

My issue is that if you decide to ignore a part of the supposed holy book of your religion as being nonsense, like the divinity of Jesus, how can you then go ahead and consider other parts as true and correct?

I mean, I know the answer, because you personally happen to agree with those parts, but that's a bit of a stretch to build such a monumental thing as a religion on now, isn't it?

Cause we do that with most pre-modern historical personalities.  Do you believe that Alexander the Great was the son of Zeus or Pythagoras had thigh made of gold?  Virgil was probably not a sorcerer, Plato probably was not born of a virgin and anointed by bees, and Thutmoses probably didn't talk to the Great Sphynx of Giza (or at least it didn't respond).

[garbon]

Over my cold dead body they would

They could probably arrange that - in this hypothetical.

[Jacob]

If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity

Well if there was some sort of neo-Arian movement, I'd think that would still be broadly described as Christian.

Like, say, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons?

[Jacob]

Agreed. Berk is right. The church (the bride of Christ) matters, not personal identity (this isn't gender for God's sake) and the beliefs of the church were clarified by the early councils. If you are outside of that you're not a Christian, you're outside the church.

So, sorry unitarians (heretics), Mormons (heathenish heretics) and all the rest, but it's been pretty clear for 1800 years, extra ecclesiam nulla salus. If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity you'd be better off trying to get associate membership ofa the ummah than the church.

Yeah, that's the Catholic point of view, for sure, and Catholics have killed plenty of people to reinforce it.

The surprising thing is that Berkut has decided that the Catholic Church's dogma on this particular subject is objectively correct when applied to non-Catholics.

[Malthus]

There still exist Monophysities. Are they "Christian"? They reject the Council of Chalcedon - accepted by modern Catholics and Protestants alike.

[garbon]

If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity

Well if there was some sort of neo-Arian movement, I'd think that would still be broadly described as Christian.

Like, say, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons?

I don't think I'd call them neo-Arian, no.

[garbon]

Agreed. Berk is right. The church (the bride of Christ) matters, not personal identity (this isn't gender for God's sake) and the beliefs of the church were clarified by the early councils. If you are outside of that you're not a Christian, you're outside the church.

So, sorry unitarians (heretics), Mormons (heathenish heretics) and all the rest, but it's been pretty clear for 1800 years, extra ecclesiam nulla salus. If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity you'd be better off trying to get associate membership ofa the ummah than the church.

Yeah, that's the Catholic point of view, for sure, and Catholics have killed plenty of people to reinforce it.

The surprising thing is that Berkut has decided that the Catholic Church's dogma on this particular subject is objectively correct when applied to non-Catholics.

Isn't that also a Protestant stance?

[garbon]

There still exist Monophysities. Are they "Christian"? They reject the Council of Chalcedon - accepted by modern Catholics and Protestants alike.

Not seeing a rejection of Christ's divinity there.

[Malthus]

Agreed. Berk is right. The church (the bride of Christ) matters, not personal identity (this isn't gender for God's sake) and the beliefs of the church were clarified by the early councils. If you are outside of that you're not a Christian, you're outside the church.

So, sorry unitarians (heretics), Mormons (heathenish heretics) and all the rest, but it's been pretty clear for 1800 years, extra ecclesiam nulla salus. If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity you'd be better off trying to get associate membership ofa the ummah than the church.

Yeah, that's the Catholic point of view, for sure, and Catholics have killed plenty of people to reinforce it.

The surprising thing is that Berkut has decided that the Catholic Church's dogma on this particular subject is objectively correct when applied to non-Catholics.

Isn't that also a Protestant stance?

Not the 'Church, Bride of Christ' stuff, no. 

The 'accepted by early Church Councils', yes. Bit that leaves a lot of what we would probably consider gen-u-ine "Christians" outside the fold - for example, Monophysites (such as Syrian Christians)

[Sheilbh]

Agreed. Berk is right. The church (the bride of Christ) matters, not personal identity (this isn't gender for God's sake) and the beliefs of the church were clarified by the early councils. If you are outside of that you're not a Christian, you're outside the church.

So, sorry unitarians (heretics), Mormons (heathenish heretics) and all the rest, but it's been pretty clear for 1800 years, extra ecclesiam nulla salus. If you don't believe in the divinity of Christ or the Trinity you'd be better off trying to get associate membership ofa the ummah than the church.

Yeah, that's the Catholic point of view, for sure, and Catholics have killed plenty of people to reinforce it.

The surprising thing is that Berkut has decided that the Catholic Church's dogma on this particular subject is objectively correct when applied to non-Catholics.

Not just Catholic, the Orthodox and most Protestants would agree. Almost everyone agrees on the Church Fathers and the early councils.

As Malthus says the only real exception I can think of is the Oriental Churches. But even there the argument is the nature of Christ's divinity which is different.

[Sheilbh]

Not the 'Church, Bride of Christ' stuff, no. 

Psh

Pretty standard Pauline gloss. And I mean the church in its most broad and encompassing definition. Not, you know, the Church.