Jesus' Wife?

[Josephus]

Which is why I think the only reasonable answer to the question of whether he existed in the form described by Christianity is clearly "not in any meaningful sense". If there was such a person at all, it is certainly clear that those who eventually wrote the dominant story about who he was and what he was, did so without any particular concern about his actual characteristics, but rather what they wanted him to be at the time they wrote about him.

yeah, I can accept this as a valid argument. Look even the four accepted gospel writers diverge in their accounts. No doubt Jesus in some form was co-opted by the writers to argue their point of view. Jesus was an early version of Wiki.

[Valmy]

Valmy, I don't recall - are you actually a Christian?

Yes...well maybe. I am not sure I would be certified by the True Christian Committee(TM). But I self-identify

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was in fact divine?

Yes. But no more or less than anybody else. I predict ISIS will be disappointed when he fails to return from the grave to save them in their darkest hour. I hope I am not going out on too much of a theological limb there.

[Valmy]

yeah, I can accept this as a valid argument. Look even the four accepted gospel writers diverge in their accounts. No doubt Jesus in some form was co-opted by the writers to argue their point of view.

Ancient writers did this all the time. History was usually used to teach moral lessons less than actually record events. I am not even sure they were conscious that what they were doing was 'co-opting' or distorting the truth, it was just how it was done.

[Berkut]

Valmy, I don't recall - are you actually a Christian?

Yes...well maybe. I am not sure I would be certified by the True Christian Committee(TM). But I self-identify

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was in fact divine?

Yes. But no more or less than anybody else.

I'll take that as a "no".

[Valmy]

I'll take that as a "no".

Any particular reason you view all Unitarians as not Christians?

[Berkut]

I'll take that as a "no".

Any particular reason you view all Unitarians as not Christians?

Probably the same reason actual Christians don't consider them Christians.

Not believing that Christ was divine* pretty much kills the basic definition of the term, in the context I am discussing it (do you actually believe that Jesus Christ was a deity - and not in the sense that 'we are all deities!' but actually the Son of God, able to perform miracles, etc., etc.).

*Calling everyone divine is pretty much a cop out.

[Valmy]

Probably the same reason actual Christians don't consider them Christians.

Well then what are we then?

Not believing that Christ was divine* pretty much kills the basic definition of the term, in the context I am discussing it (do you actually believe that Jesus Christ was a deity - and not in the sense that 'we are all deities!' but actually the Son of God, able to perform miracles, etc., etc.).

*Calling everyone divine is pretty much a cop out.

Well needless to say I couldn't disagree more with this nonsense.

[Berkut]

Probably the same reason actual Christians don't consider them Christians.

Well then what are we then?

Unitarians.

Not believing that Christ was divine* pretty much kills the basic definition of the term, in the context I am discussing it (do you actually believe that Jesus Christ was a deity - and not in the sense that 'we are all deities!' but actually the Son of God, able to perform miracles, etc., etc.).

*Calling everyone divine is pretty much a cop out.

Well needless to say I couldn't disagree more with this nonsense.

You don't have to agree with me, as your agreements that *I* don't consider people who think Jesus was just some guy with some good ideas as being people who believe that he was the Son of God isn't really all that meaningful in any fashion. IN fact, it seems kind of like a tautology.

I understand that YOU consider yourself Christian, and I have no problem with that - but when *I* am trying to define for myself reasonable religious categories, people who profess to hold no actual religious beliefs as I understand the term "religion" are very relevant to that categorization...hence my original question to you. I appreciate the clarification, and for me, you fall into "agnostic/atheist", unless I am not understanding your belief system thoroughly, which of course is very possible.

Myself, people who claim no actual religious beliefs beyond the desire to call themselves religious aren't religious.

I can say I am a millionaire because I value my friendships and the love of my family as being worth more than a million dollars, and that statement might make some kind of sense, but if someone was taking a census of people who are actually worth more than a million dollars, they still don't qualify even if their statement might be true is some figurative sense.

[Berkut]

Well needless to say I couldn't disagree more with this nonsense.

BTW, I cannot possibly be the first person to state that they don't consider Unitarians Christian.

I am sure you've heard this many times long before me.

It isn't exactly crazy talk to note that someone who doesn't necessarily even believe that there is a "God" in the sense that 99.9% of other Christians think there is a god (much less that he had a divine son, the trinity, rising from the dead, etc., etc) doesn't meet the traditional definition of "Christian".

[Martinus]

Probably the same reason actual Christians don't consider them Christians.

Well then what are we then?

Not believing that Christ was divine* pretty much kills the basic definition of the term, in the context I am discussing it (do you actually believe that Jesus Christ was a deity - and not in the sense that 'we are all deities!' but actually the Son of God, able to perform miracles, etc., etc.).

*Calling everyone divine is pretty much a cop out.

Well needless to say I couldn't disagree more with this nonsense.

Now you know how all those ISIS fighters feel when people tell them what they do has nothing to do with Islam.

[alfred russel]

Martinus be careful about pointing out areas of common ground, or this thread could trigger an ISIS - Unitarian alliance.

[Malthus]

Martinus be careful about pointing out areas of common ground, or this thread could trigger an ISIS - Unitarian alliance.

They behead you, and then hold an informative non-judgmental meeting with free coffee? 

[Valmy]

They behead you, and then hold an informative non-judgmental meeting with free coffee? 

Yeah I was trying to figure out how our alliance would work.

You are a spiritual being having a physical experience OF BEING OUR SEX SLAVE.

[Caliga]

Valmy, are you UU?

As someone who sympathizes with the UUA, and has attended UU services in the past in both KY and MA, the term I hear more than Christian is 'post-Christian', meaning the UUA had its roots in Christianity but has moved beyond it.  While individual Unitarians are welcome to believe in the divinity of Christ, the UUA has no position that Christ was or was not divine (or really that he even existed at all), so cannot by any reasonable definition be considered Christian.

So Valmy can be a Christian and belong to a UU church, but he can't say that the UU is Christian.  I'm not sure what exactly he was trying to say so he can clarify that if he wants.

[Valmy]

No, not UU. Unity, a religion and a game engine. http://www.unity.org/

While individual Unitarians are welcome to believe in the divinity of Christ, the UUA has no position that Christ was or was not divine (or really that he even existed at all), so cannot by any reasonable definition be considered Christian.

I do not see why to be considered Christian you must abide by strict Trinitarian Orthodoxy. Indeed if that was the case why would there even be a term 'Trinitarian'? It would just be Christianity.

Also I view one of the strengths of Christianity as a religion is its variety of interpretation. So I don't have much time for such a narrow interpretation.

So Valmy can be a Christian and belong to a UU church, but he can't say that the UU is Christian.  I'm not sure what exactly he was trying to say so he can clarify that if he wants.

I have no position on the Christianity of UU