Stuck In Your Parents’ Basement? Don’t Blame The Economy

[garbon]

You are agreeing with someone who is equating NOT living at Johns Hopkins with living in a slum. Those are apparently the only two options in your world - you either live in the very nicest (and most expensive) real estate in America, or you might as well be living in the ghetto.

Not really.

You know, most people don't live in either. They live in middle class suburbs. Those suburbs exist even around major cities. And there are real problems with the ability of young people to actually afford housing in those middle class areas.

Ah you mean areas in which I grew up that are also very expensive - by their very proximity (and the fact that they house commuters) to cities that are uber expensive. Joan already covered this with his comment about affordable places really only found Worcester and westward. (And/or have things like crap schools like my MA hometown)

You wonder why people think you are entitled? You can't even discuss the problems of housing for middle class people in middle class areas, which is the vast majority of America, and the vast majority of where college graduates actually want to live. If it isn't SF or NYC, they might as well be slums.

Entitled? That is your word, not mine. But if the gucci loafer fits, by all means slide it on.

Entitled is a weird word. I don't think I'm entitled to all that very much (maybe right to exist? some civil liberties? bearing arms?). You would be right to point out though that I am privileged. I certainly am that.

[Tamas]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

[Berkut]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

I think you must be right.

[garbon]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

Yeah, I understand his point. There are some Americans whose issues are more important than others. If you are a poorer American trying to hack it in an expensive area, you should know better. Such is beyond your station.

[Berkut]

You are agreeing with someone who is equating NOT living at Johns Hopkins with living in a slum. Those are apparently the only two options in your world - you either live in the very nicest (and most expensive) real estate in America, or you might as well be living in the ghetto.

Not really.

You know, most people don't live in either. They live in middle class suburbs. Those suburbs exist even around major cities. And there are real problems with the ability of young people to actually afford housing in those middle class areas.

Ah you mean areas in which I grew up that are also very expensive - by their very proximity (and the fact that they house commuters) to cities that are uber expensive. Joan already covered this with his comment about affordable places really only found Worcester and westward. (And/or have things like crap schools like my MA hometown)

No, I mean the vast majority of America that isn't near any uber expensive city. You know, the median reality that most people exist in, where they just live in a average city with average costs and average salaries.

The problem with this focus is that there is no fix for the problem that real estate in and near highly desirable places is going to be expensive, at least not in a market economy. It isn't a new problem, it has existed forever and will exist forever.

The problem of stagnating wages in the middle class combined with increasing real estate prices in median locations is NOT driven by people all wanting to live in the same few places, and focusing on SF and NYC is missing the entire point.

[Berkut]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

Yeah, I understand his point. There are some Americans whose issues are more important than others. If you are a poorer American trying to hack it in an expensive area, you should know better. Such is beyond your station.

That is just lying about my point.

[Tamas]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

Yeah, I understand his point. There are some Americans whose issues are more important than others. If you are a poorer American trying to hack it in an expensive area, you should know better. Such is beyond your station.

His point is that there may be a housing problem in America, but you cannot come to that conclusion based only on data from SF and NY which are probably two out of the 3-4 most sought-after living areas on the entire planet.

Basically, Berkut is saying America>SF+NY

[Valmy]

All I know is that I am selling my house for 200+ thousand dollars which is pretty laughable for a house that small and I am not exactly super close to downtown Austin.

[garbon]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

Yeah, I understand his point. There are some Americans whose issues are more important than others. If you are a poorer American trying to hack it in an expensive area, you should know better. Such is beyond your station.

His point is that there may be a housing problem in America, but you cannot come to that conclusion based only on data from SF and NY which are probably two out of the 3-4 most sought-after living areas on the entire planet.

Basically, Berkut is saying America>SF+NY

And I thought Joan had moved us beyond those two cities and their immediate municipal borders. From what I recall, Jacob expanded the discussion to 50 million people.

I also think it is a mistake to ignore what is happening in larger cities, or suggested it is not representative or unconnected. No one was saying that those cities should not be expensive but rather noting that it is getting more and more difficult for middle class people to get by in them. People that not so long ago would have been able to get buy in them.

[Berkut]

Berkut they can't possibly be so stupid as to not understand the point you are trying to make. They are just trolling you.

Yeah, I understand his point. There are some Americans whose issues are more important than others. If you are a poorer American trying to hack it in an expensive area, you should know better. Such is beyond your station.

His point is that there may be a housing problem in America, but you cannot come to that conclusion based only on data from SF and NY which are probably two out of the 3-4 most sought-after living areas on the entire planet.

Basically, Berkut is saying America>SF+NY

And I thought Joan had moved us beyond those two cities and their immediate municipal borders. From what I recall, Jacob expanded the discussion to 50 million people.

I also think it is a mistake to ignore what is happening in larger cities, or suggested it is not representative or unconnected. No one was saying that those cities should not be expensive but rather noting that it is getting more and more difficult for middle class people to get by in them. People that not so long ago would have been able to get buy in them.

But if you expand to 50 million people, as I pointed out, you are also expanding your way right out of the uber expensive areas. The outlying areas of places like LA (which was required to get to those numbers) are not at all similarly expensive as NYC or SF, and are a lot more average.

You can't have it both ways - include the numbers in the "metro areas" of the known expensive places, but still insist that you only talk about the prices in the urban centers.

NYC, of course, is a special case. It is a uniquely desirable place to live that drives housing prices for probably a hundred miles around it. Same with DC. SF is a little different, with crazy prices all around the geographically large bay area.

But LA? There are plenty of middle class suburbs in the LA area that have (compared to the NYC and the Bay area) much more reasonable prices nearer the national medians for middle class areas. If you want to push the pool out, you get into areas where we are no longer talking about the most expensive places anymore.

But even if we do push it to 50 million, that proves my point more than yours - that is going to the top 15% if the US. What about the other 85%? Why should we consider the top 15% representative, rather than the median 15%?

[frunk]

I don't know, it all seems like the same problem.  It comes down to lots of money in the economy, but less and less of it in the lower and middle classes.  It means that being able to afford housing for the vast majority is getting tougher, and in the big population centers it is getting virtually impossible without government assistance of one sort or another.  The big cities are notable precisely because of how extreme the problem is becoming.

[Berkut]

I don't know, it all seems like the same problem.  It comes down to lots of money in the economy, but less and less of it in the lower and middle classes.  It means that being able to afford housing for the vast majority is getting tougher, and in the big population centers it is getting virtually impossible without government assistance of one sort or another.  The big cities are notable precisely because of how extreme the problem is becoming.

Well, certainly it is the case that growing middle class income stagnation combined with rising real estate prices are going to exacerbate the already existing basic issue that expensive places are hard for non-wealthy people to live in, but that seems so obviously true as to not really be worth discussion.

However, it has been impossible for the poor to live in Manhattan without government assistance for a long time, even when by all accounts middle class incomes were growing very nicely.

So again, insisting that the discussion begins and ends where DG and garbon live (or want to live?) is not really that useful. When talking about generalities, it makes sense to talk about the averages and medians, not the worst cases.

[Jacob]

Basically, Berkut is saying America>SF+NY

And the counter point is that the problems found in SF+NY should not just be dismissed with a "ah well, if you're not rich enough that's your own problem."

[garbon]

I don't know, it all seems like the same problem.  It comes down to lots of money in the economy, but less and less of it in the lower and middle classes.  It means that being able to afford housing for the vast majority is getting tougher, and in the big population centers it is getting virtually impossible without government assistance of one sort or another.  The big cities are notable precisely because of how extreme the problem is becoming.

Well, certainly it is the case that growing middle class income stagnation combined with rising real estate prices are going to exacerbate the already existing basic issue that expensive places are hard for non-wealthy people to live in, but that seems so obviously true as to not really be worth discussion.

However, it has been impossible for the poor to live in Manhattan without government assistance for a long time, even when by all accounts middle class incomes were growing very nicely.

So again, insisting that the discussion begins and ends where DG and garbon live (or want to live?) is not really that useful. When talking about generalities, it makes sense to talk about the averages and medians, not the worst cases.

Now we are shifting to only care about poor people? What happened to the middle class?

[Berkut]

I don't know, it all seems like the same problem.  It comes down to lots of money in the economy, but less and less of it in the lower and middle classes.  It means that being able to afford housing for the vast majority is getting tougher, and in the big population centers it is getting virtually impossible without government assistance of one sort or another.  The big cities are notable precisely because of how extreme the problem is becoming.

Well, certainly it is the case that growing middle class income stagnation combined with rising real estate prices are going to exacerbate the already existing basic issue that expensive places are hard for non-wealthy people to live in, but that seems so obviously true as to not really be worth discussion.

However, it has been impossible for the poor to live in Manhattan without government assistance for a long time, even when by all accounts middle class incomes were growing very nicely.

So again, insisting that the discussion begins and ends where DG and garbon live (or want to live?) is not really that useful. When talking about generalities, it makes sense to talk about the averages and medians, not the worst cases.

Now we are shifting to only care about poor people? What happened to the middle class?

How do you get that from me talking about the middle class?