Archaeologists do it in holes: Tales from the stratigraphy

[grumbler]

But hey it is cool they potentially found a matrilocal society. Though I am curious about this:

"Matrilocality is the mirror image. ... Women in matrilocal societies tend to be empowered."

It would be cool to hear about some well known and documented examples there.

Look up the Navajo.  They are both matrilocal and matrilineal, though not a matriarchy.

[crazy canuck]

But hey it is cool they potentially found a matrilocal society. Though I am curious about this:

"Matrilocality is the mirror image. ... Women in matrilocal societies tend to be empowered."

It would be cool to hear about some well known and documented examples there.

Look up the Navajo.  They are both matrilocal and matrilineal, though not a matriarchy.

The Nisga'a were, and to some extent are again becoming all three.

[Razgovory]

I doubt that.

[crazy canuck]

Based on your extensive knowledge of culture within the north western area of what is now known as British Columbia?

Do share.

[Razgovory]

There has never been a documented Matriarchy.

[grumbler]

There has never been a documented Matriarchy.

If one defines matriarchy as a mirror-image of patriarchy, that's true but irrelevant.  A matriarchy by its nature lacks the obsession with power that drives patriarchies.

As I mentioned above, the Navajo are matrilocal and matrilineal, though no longer matrilineal. Traditionally, though, Navajo women owned the land and the sheep herds, while men owned the horses and cattle. Women did the farming and men the herding.  This meant that the men were often away from the clan settlements during the grazing season, leaving women to organize and run things in the settlement.  Men also moved into the settlement of their wives and wives' families, and children were born into their mothers' clans.  The clan was run by women for all of those reasons.  Men still had important roles, however, and they were the ones who dealt with relations outside the tribe, both in war and peace.

All of this is documented.

The Hopi and Pueblo were somewhat similar (and, indeed, the Navajo adopted their matrilineal, matriarchically, and matrilocal customs from their neighbors).  I don't know enough about those tribes to speak to them, though.

[Razgovory]

Right, if we change the definition of Matriarchy, then the possibilities of finding one increase. A matriarchy is where women rule and men do not.  If we change the definition sufficiently we could say that the Western world is now a matriarchy.  The stuff about "obsession with power" is modern politics.


I would be wary of any indigenous traditions that revolve around the ownership of sheep, cattle and horses.  Something tells me such traditions aren't very old.

[grumbler]

Right, if we change the definition of Matriarchy, then the possibilities of finding one increase. A matriarchy is where women rule and men do not.  If we change the definition sufficiently we could say that the Western world is now a matriarchy.  The stuff about "obsession with power" is modern politics.

What is the absolute single definition of matriarchy, in your opinion?  Does it come from a source (if so, which?) or is it your own private definition?

I would be wary of any indigenous traditions that revolve around the ownership of sheep, cattle and horses.  Something tells me such traditions aren't very old.

I responded to your claim that "there has never been a documented Matriarchy" with an example of a documented matriarchy. Nowhere in our discussion has the age of the tradition been relevant.

[crazy canuck]

Right, if we change the definition of Matriarchy, then the possibilities of finding one increase. A matriarchy is where women rule and men do not.  If we change the definition sufficiently we could say that the Western world is now a matriarchy.  The stuff about "obsession with power" is modern politics.


I would be wary of any indigenous traditions that revolve around the ownership of sheep, cattle and horses.  Something tells me such traditions aren't very old.

The fact that the men were given the newest things to arrive and the women dealt with the long s

Right, if we change the definition of Matriarchy, then the possibilities of finding one increase. A matriarchy is where women rule and men do not.  If we change the definition sufficiently we could say that the Western world is now a matriarchy.  The stuff about "obsession with power" is modern politics.


I would be wary of any indigenous traditions that revolve around the ownership of sheep, cattle and horses.  Something tells me such traditions aren't very old.

I am not sure how you are defining Matriarchy but if you define it as women being the decision makers over what happens, then there have been a number of documented societies where that occurred. 

If you are defining it as the mirror image of Christian Nationalist Patriarchy, then no, that has never existed. Women are smarter than that.

[Razgovory]

Right, if we change the definition of Matriarchy, then the possibilities of finding one increase. A matriarchy is where women rule and men do not.  If we change the definition sufficiently we could say that the Western world is now a matriarchy.  The stuff about "obsession with power" is modern politics.

What is the absolute single definition of matriarchy, in your opinion?  Does it come from a source (if so, which?) or is it your own private definition?

I would be wary of any indigenous traditions that revolve around the ownership of sheep, cattle and horses.  Something tells me such traditions aren't very old.

I responded to your claim that "there has never been a documented Matriarchy" with an example of a documented matriarchy. Nowhere in our discussion has the age of the tradition been relevant.

Matriarchy:  Matri- mothers
                  Archy - rule
Rule by mothers or by women.  Patterned after Patriarchy, an older word.

family, group, or state governed by a matriarch
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/matriarchy

[crazy canuck]

Yes, Raz. And there are documented cases of rule by Women.

[Razgovory]

I am not sure how you are defining Matriarchy but if you define it as women being the decision makers over what happens, then there have been a number of documented societies where that occurred. 

If you are defining it as the mirror image of Christian Nationalist Patriarchy, then no, that has never existed. Women are smarter than that.

Yeah, ancient Rome and Greece were known for the their Christian Nationalism. Modern day Iran as well. When people try to project matriarchy into the past what they are really concerned about is the present as you amply demonstrate.

Lots of societies have had women who make decisions.  They don't have societies where women exclusively make decisions.  Our society lets women make a whole bunch decisions, including command in combat (something quite rare), but we don't consider ourselves a matriarchy. 

[crazy canuck]

Please tell me you used AI to draft that.   

If you can find a source that says either Rome or Greece were characterized by Nationalism, I would be greately indebted.  I have not heard of such a thing before.

And yes, there are certainly documented cases of women being the decision makers.  ie Their agreement was required. Just because you have not heard of it, does not mean it does not exist.

[Razgovory]

Is Canada a matriarchy?  

[crazy canuck]

No, we are a Parliamentary Democracy.

I am pretty sure you knew that.