Archaeologists do it in holes: Tales from the stratigraphy

[Barrister]

So this sort of came up when I studied Old English at university. There's a big thing in Anglo-Saxon poetry of your "sister's son" - it seems to have been an important relationship, they were often given as a ward to their uncle etc. My tutor's theory was that it's one relationship where there is a definite biological link.

Yes, that's true in the Navajo tribe as well.  The most important man in a Navajo boy's life is his mother's oldest brother (or maternal grandfather if no brother exists).  The father teaches the practical skills the boy needs, but he's not a member of the clan so cannot teach the boy the all-important clan secrets - including giving the boy his "secret" or "true" name (the one by which the spirits refer to him). The father is not supposed to know that name, any more than anyone outside the clan is supposed to know.

I'm reminded of the inland T'lingit of Yukon.  You're part of the T'lingit nation, or course, but equally as important was your clan - which was passed down matrilineally.

(and of course the fact they're the "inland" T'lingit is because the T'lingit are a coastal people, but this group moved inland to Yukon at some relatively recent point).

Linguistically, although the T'lingit are neighbours to Athabaskan people (who are related to the Navajo/Dene) the languages are totally different.

Sorry - I find this stuff fascinating when you look at the real history, and not just "crying Indian" stereotypes.  I also learned a lot about the T'lingit from a colleague when I worked up there.

[Razgovory]

Matriarchy:  Matri- mothers
                  Archy - rule
Rule by mothers or by women.  Patterned after Patriarchy, an older word.

family, group, or state governed by a matriarch
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/matriarchy

By that definition, the Navajo nation is a matriarchy.

Also very much true true using the definition you conveniently left out of your post:

: a system of social organization in which descent and inheritance are traced through the female line

This is well-documented enough that you should find no problem verifying it.

Note that no definitions except your private one require that the group be solely run by women, just that they were the governing force.

The source you are asking for is the dictionary link.  The other stuff was just the etymology of the word.

[Razgovory]

My point is if you apply the same standards of matriarchy to a modern society that do to a pre-state society you end up with modern societies being matriarchies.

Honestly what you and Grumbler seem to be describing is a situation where women run the storehouse and the kitchen and men do the prestigious work of fighting and herding.  That's not that uncommon, and certainly not a matriarchy.  People have tried to project a matriarchy onto the past many times in history.  It tells us more about the concerns of the people doing the projecting than it does about the culture they are describing.  I think it bothers people that modern feminism grew out of a culture they consider despotically patriarchal and so they go looking for alternate sources.

I am not at all arguing that the Navajo men did the "prestigious work of fighting and herding."  Those were not prestige activities among the Navajo.  The prestige activities were owning the land and carrying out religious, social, and curing ceremonies.  Those were done by women, for the most part (though not exclusively), and women were expected to make the important family decisions like who their children would marry, when to plant the crops, and how to settle clan disputes.

Those are not traits reserved to women in modern Canada.

You are going to tell me that fighting isn't prestigious?  I don't believe you.  Pre-state societies are very violent, and any group that doesn't put heavy emphasis on fighting gets wiped out by a group that does.

[jimmy olsen]

My point is if you apply the same standards of matriarchy to a modern society that do to a pre-state society you end up with modern societies being matriarchies.

Honestly what you and Grumbler seem to be describing is a situation where women run the storehouse and the kitchen and men do the prestigious work of fighting and herding.  That's not that uncommon, and certainly not a matriarchy.  People have tried to project a matriarchy onto the past many times in history.  It tells us more about the concerns of the people doing the projecting than it does about the culture they are describing.  I think it bothers people that modern feminism grew out of a culture they consider despotically patriarchal and so they go looking for alternate sources.

I am not at all arguing that the Navajo men did the "prestigious work of fighting and herding."  Those were not prestige activities among the Navajo.  The prestige activities were owning the land and carrying out religious, social, and curing ceremonies.  Those were done by women, for the most part (though not exclusively), and women were expected to make the important family decisions like who their children would marry, when to plant the crops, and how to settle clan disputes.

Those are not traits reserved to women in modern Canada.

You are going to tell me that fighting isn't prestigious?  I don't believe you.  Pre-state societies are very violent, and any group that doesn't put heavy emphasis on fighting gets wiped out by a group that does.

EDIT: Eh, never mind. Thought you said pre-modern, not pre-state.

[HVC]

My point is if you apply the same standards of matriarchy to a modern society that do to a pre-state society you end up with modern societies being matriarchies.

Honestly what you and Grumbler seem to be describing is a situation where women run the storehouse and the kitchen and men do the prestigious work of fighting and herding.  That's not that uncommon, and certainly not a matriarchy.  People have tried to project a matriarchy onto the past many times in history.  It tells us more about the concerns of the people doing the projecting than it does about the culture they are describing.  I think it bothers people that modern feminism grew out of a culture they consider despotically patriarchal and so they go looking for alternate sources.

I am not at all arguing that the Navajo men did the "prestigious work of fighting and herding."  Those were not prestige activities among the Navajo.  The prestige activities were owning the land and carrying out religious, social, and curing ceremonies.  Those were done by women, for the most part (though not exclusively), and women were expected to make the important family decisions like who their children would marry, when to plant the crops, and how to settle clan disputes.

Those are not traits reserved to women in modern Canada.

You are going to tell me that fighting isn't prestigious?  I don't believe you.  Pre-state societies are very violent, and any group that doesn't put heavy emphasis on fighting gets wiped out by a group that does.

Imperial china prioritized scholars and bureaucrats over warriors didn't it?

And then got stomped by various step people over different dynasties because of it

Serious answer, generalships and governorships were still prestigious and heavily sought after.

[grumbler]

Confucianism rated warriors below farmers, alongside laborers. Governors and generals were nobles, not warriors.