Russian Flyby of USS Donald Cook in Baltic Sea Alarms Experts

[grumbler]

Raz's story smells to high heaven.  First of all, the whole "fishing boat" thing sounds like it is written by a guy who wasn't there.  No one who was there ever confused a Soviet AGI with a fishing boat, or ever thought it was "disguising" itself as a fishing boat.  AGIs flew the Soviet naval ensign and carried naval hull numbers.  This dude's description sounds like he heard it as part of a sea story someone told him (or else he is telling his own sea story, which makes the rest of the story suspect as well).

Secondly, US navy jets always go to full power when landing on the carrier.  That's because, if they miss the wire ("bolter"), they have to have the speed to take off again and make another landing attempt.  If the AGI was as close as this guy seems to be claiming, it is going to get a lot of noise  from low-flying planes.  I ran plane guard any number of times in WestPac and the IO, and that is what it is like back behind the carrier.

I also highly doubt that these pilots would be farting around like this in such close proximity to the carrier.  Violating the INCSEA agreement with the CAG just a few thousand yards away is not going to be a career-enhancer, and doing so where you could be fucking up the pattern is likewise unlikely.

If it walks like a sea story and talks like a sea story, I think that we can dismiss this as a sea story.

[Razgovory]

A similar incident happened several years ago in the South China sea with a Chinese plane and an American ship.  Seedy was on the warpath and Grumbler related a very similar story, which is what informed my opinion on this matter.  If only there was some way for Grumbler to directly communicate what the difference is, or what my error was.  Oh well.

[grumbler]

Anybody with an ounce of brains can see the sea story nature of Raz's linked account:
(1) the Soviet AGI is supposed to be 1,000 yards off the carrier's starboard quarter
(2) Aircraft approach the carrier from the starboard quarter, because the angled deck leads them towards the port bow:
   
(3) The author says that

In a break from our normal flight schedule, the Air Boss launched five F-14s from one of our Tomcat squadrons which quickly climbed through the cloud ceiling and disappeared.

That's not how flight ops work.  The Air Boss cannot just order five F-14s to launch. The Battle Group Commander's staff has complete control over the launch schedule.  F-14s aren't just sitting around, fueled and ready, in case the Air boss wants to launch them.  There wil be X number of fighters in Ready-15 and Ready-30 (numbers are minutes to launch), but they belong to BB, not the Air Boss.  No one who has actually been on a carrier could make that mistake.
(4) I especially liked the line that

Nobody seemed to notice that two of our fighters were still out there

because I am like "really?  No one noticed?  Not one of the flight deck crew Master Chief Aviation Bosun's Mates could count to five?  The Soviets couldn't count to five? Not credible.
(5) Also, the author argues that

From 1979 until early 1983 I spent the better part of my time floating around on an aircraft carrier during WESTPAC (Western Pacific) deployments. If you're checking your calendars right now you'll see that this was during the height of the cold war and the Russians (who we referred to as the Soviets back in the day) were looked upon with a rather jaundiced eye by western forces.

My response is:
(a) The US was worked up about Iran at the time; the Soviets were an old, well-known factor at the time, and certainly not resented.  The height of the Cold War had been over for more than a decade by then.  This guy wasn't there.
(b) Does any Navy man tell a story like this without naming the carrier and the year?  I've never seen or read such a man.  Other Navy types here can chime in if they disagree.

My supposition is that this guy never served on a carrier, but has read a bit about carrier ops.  He read about the Russian flyby, and desperately wanted to Tyr himself into a conversation about the Russian flyby, so found some old post and kinda updated it.

[MadBurgerMaker]

(b) Does any Navy man tell a story like this without naming the carrier and the year?

No because the immediate follow-up question for any story like this would be "what ship were you on" if they didn't know already.

[CountDeMoney]

There is no bar story too small for grumbler to fact check with visual presentations and annotated references right then and there.

[11B4V]

There is no bar story too small for grumbler to fact check with visual presentations and annotated references right then and there.

It's wonderful.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

A similar incident happened several years ago in the South China sea with a Chinese plane and an American ship.  Seedy was on the warpath and Grumbler related a very similar story, which is what informed my opinion on this matter.  If only there was some way for Grumbler to directly communicate what the difference is, or what my error was.  Oh well.

Umm, the difference is a Chinese ship is not a Russian ship.  Nobody ever said US pilots never engage in this kind of behavior.  You said, "We do this to Russians all the time, you don't think they should shoot down our planes, do you?"  That is a reference ti a specific nation with which we have a bilateral agreement not to do this kind of shit to each other.  Whether or not we ever did this to a Chinese ship is irrelevant.

[derspiess]

During one cruise we were being followed – as usual – by a Russian "fishing boat." The scare quotes are a requirement because that ship was bristling with more antennae than quills on a medium sized porcupine and they never did seem to find much time to do any actual fishing. As long as they stayed several miles away toward the horizon we generally ignored them and went about our business. It was obviously a spy ship, but we tracked all their vessels too and it was all in the game. But during one period they decided to get really up close and personal, moving in to within a half mile or so and tracking us off the rear starboard quarter. This went on for a little while until the Captain clearly grew tired of it.

The day was dark and overcast with an extremely low cloud ceiling. In a break from our normal flight schedule, the Air Boss launched five F-14s from one of our Tomcat squadrons which quickly climbed through the cloud ceiling and disappeared. A short time later three of them landed. The guys up top in the signal shack were watching the Russians through binoculars and I happened to be out there one deck below them outside of our air search radar shack. They reported that the Soviets were watching us closely.

Nobody seemed to notice that two of our fighters were still out there until one of them dropped in a flat fall out of the clouds pretty much right on top of the Russian ship. The pilots kicked in the afterburners and they gunned the jets low over the small ship producing a ton of flame and a lot of noise. The signalmen were laughing hysterically as they reported that the Soviet sailors were diving for the decks and down through open hatches. Back in the day this was known as "roasting them." Our second F-14 followed a moment later doing the exact same thing. A short time later the Russians dropped back to a distance of about ten miles.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/04/14/russian-and-american-jets-buzzing-each-other-are-nothing-new-another-view/

"The sea was angry that day, my friends.  like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli."

[Razgovory]

A similar incident happened several years ago in the South China sea with a Chinese plane and an American ship.  Seedy was on the warpath and Grumbler related a very similar story, which is what informed my opinion on this matter.  If only there was some way for Grumbler to directly communicate what the difference is, or what my error was.  Oh well.

Umm, the difference is a Chinese ship is not a Russian ship.  Nobody ever said US pilots never engage in this kind of behavior.  You said, "We do this to Russians all the time, you don't think they should shoot down our planes, do you?"  That is a reference ti a specific nation with which we have a bilateral agreement not to do this kind of shit to each other.  Whether or not we ever did this to a Chinese ship is irrelevant.

I didn't say that Grumbler's story was about a Chinese vessel though.

[Razgovory]

There is no bar story too small for grumbler to fact check with visual presentations and annotated references right then and there.

  Poor Grumbler, I think he's becoming obsessed with me.

[grumbler]

(b) Does any Navy man tell a story like this without naming the carrier and the year?

No because the immediate follow-up question for any story like this would be "what ship were you on" if they didn't know already.

And the teller of the story would start to go on about how he couldn't say because they were on a secret mission, and he was undercover...

I was with the Navy Seals,

Special Unit carrier...

Commando Airborne Tactics...

Specialist Tactics Unit Carrier.

Yeah, it was real hush hush.               

I was Agent Orange,

Special Agent Orange, that was me.



All to avoid the possibility that his interlocutor was, in fact, on the ship in question and could call bullshit.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

A similar incident happened several years ago in the South China sea with a Chinese plane and an American ship.  Seedy was on the warpath and Grumbler related a very similar story, which is what informed my opinion on this matter.  If only there was some way for Grumbler to directly communicate what the difference is, or what my error was.  Oh well.

Umm, the difference is a Chinese ship is not a Russian ship.  Nobody ever said US pilots never engage in this kind of behavior.  You said, "We do this to Russians all the time, you don't think they should shoot down our planes, do you?"  That is a reference ti a specific nation with which we have a bilateral agreement not to do this kind of shit to each other.  Whether or not we ever did this to a Chinese ship is irrelevant.

I didn't say that Grumbler's story was about a Chinese vessel though.

Actually, I reversed the adjectives on your story in my head. 

[grumbler]

I didn't say that Grumbler's story was about a Chinese vessel though.

Actually, I reversed the adjectives on your story in my head. 

I have no idea what raz is talking about, unless it was my description of "Bear Day" in a WestPac transit (that's the day your formation got overflown by a Soviet Bear surveillance plane; it was kinda the initiation in your transit from EastPac to WestPac).  I wouldn't worry too much about raz's claims about what other people said; he could be just referring to the voices in his head.

[Razgovory]

For someone who doesn't worry, you sure respond a lot!  Particularly for someone who tries not to respond to me.

[derspiess]

I have no idea what raz is talking about, unless it was my description of "Bear Day" in a WestPac transit

Grabon's ears just perked up.