Calling all Christians - how well do you know your doctrine?

[garbon]

Not really sure I want to be saved. There'd be a dry heaven, no abortions and Ted Cruz might be there.

Precisely. Rather tha dissolving yourself in the Divine, you may wish another go. It's pain and pleasure in equal measure, but you might still wish for new experiences.

Well except for the whole bit that you don't even know you are having new experiences as you don't even remember 'you.'

[Martinus]

Not really sure I want to be saved. There'd be a dry heaven, no abortions and Ted Cruz might be there.

Precisely. Rather tha dissolving yourself in the Divine, you may wish another go. It's pain and pleasure in equal measure, but you might still wish for new experiences.

Well except for the whole bit that you don't even know you are having new experiences as you don't even remember 'you.'

The idea is that you do when you are given the choice whether to have another go.

[Berkut]

That's why I think Christianity works much better with reincarnation - that way you get another chance if you don't get saved on your first run.

Why go to the trouble?

Just have everyone be saved on the first run to begin with, and save the hassle.

You can't force people with those things.

Who said anything about forcing anyone? Jesus could save everyone without forcing anyone. He is omnipotent. He could set it up so everyone is saved, while still enjoying complete free will.

And really?

You don't think "Be saved or suffer in eternal torture" force?

I clarify this more in the response to Norgy. I think "being saved" is more like "being dissolved in the Divine" as opposed to maintaining your identity and ego - which is a source of pain and suffering (as you are separated from the Divine) but still can be fun.

I mean the eternal torture of damnation is really a product of lurid minds of medieval monks - what really makes hell the eternal damnation is being separated from the Divine - some people may wish to postpone the union.

You can define "hell" anyway you like, it really doesn't matter.

Let's define "Outcome A" as "That outcome that Jesus/God wants humans to attain, and presumably one that humans ought to want to attain as well, given a devout and thorough understanding of the divine"

and "Outcome B" as "That outcomes that Jesus/God does not want for humans, but is there natural state absent 'salvation', and this state is presumably one that given a devout and thorough understanding of the divine no human ought to desire".

In typical Christianity, this is loosely labeled as "heaven" and "hell".

Given a omnipotent Jesus who went through what is at least described as considerable trouble to provide that salvation, I still don't see why he didn't just set the system up better so it was all unnecessary to start with - given that a fundamental of modern religious belief is that he has the power to set up the system in any fashion he sees fit, and the knowledge to know exactly how any system would turn out...

[garbon]

Not really sure I want to be saved. There'd be a dry heaven, no abortions and Ted Cruz might be there.

Precisely. Rather tha dissolving yourself in the Divine, you may wish another go. It's pain and pleasure in equal measure, but you might still wish for new experiences.

Well except for the whole bit that you don't even know you are having new experiences as you don't even remember 'you.'

The idea is that you do when you are given the choice whether to have another go.

Sure but then you don't really know anything about all of your experiences until say after round 2 when you are facing said dissolution into the Divine (assuming when you die again you gain knowledge of what you had done before...otherwise is it truly reincarnation if you just wipe out your previous self entirely).

[Valmy]

Given a omnipotent Jesus who went through what is at least described as considerable trouble to provide that salvation, I still don't see why he didn't just set the system up better so it was all unnecessary to start with - given that a fundamental of modern religious belief is that he has the power to set up the system in any fashion he sees fit, and the knowledge to know exactly how any system would turn out...

He gave humans free will to fuck it all up. GG Jesus.

[Berkut]

Given a omnipotent Jesus who went through what is at least described as considerable trouble to provide that salvation, I still don't see why he didn't just set the system up better so it was all unnecessary to start with - given that a fundamental of modern religious belief is that he has the power to set up the system in any fashion he sees fit, and the knowledge to know exactly how any system would turn out...

He gave humans free will to fuck it all up. GG Jesus.

Again, omnipotent.

He could give us a free will, and set it up so we don't fuck it up as well.

Or set it up so lots and lots less fuck it up, or lots more fuck it up.

His perfect knowledge means that he already knew exactly how many would fuck it up, so it must be the case that he in fact wants exactly as many to fuck it up as HAS fucked it up.

So no worries, the system is working exactly as intended. Saved, not saved, it doesn't really matter, because logic tells us that either way, it is what the person entity who set the entire thing up wants anyway.

The bible might *say* they want everyone to be saved, and of course that simply means that the system wants the bible to say that - logically it certainly is not true.

[Martinus]

I think it is much better to have free will than for everyone to get the perfect score every time they take the test.

[Berkut]

I think it is much better to have free will than for everyone to get the perfect score every time they take the test.

Omnipotent.

You can have both.

[Tonitrus]

You're starting to make omnipotence sound like a real drag. 

[Grinning_Colossus]

Seems a bit problematic on the whole allowing non-believers into heaven bit. Why was that only a one time deal? Surely there were lots of other people who were still living after Christ's death who never even had the chance to be Christians as it was still an unknown creed to them.

Some believe that Jesus also appeared to the people of the New World to give them a shot at salvation. Ask Jaron for more information about this.

[Valmy]

Again, omnipotent.

He could give us a free will, and set it up so we don't fuck it up as well.

Or set it up so lots and lots less fuck it up, or lots more fuck it up.

His perfect knowledge means that he already knew exactly how many would fuck it up, so it must be the case that he in fact wants exactly as many to fuck it up as HAS fucked it up.

So no worries, the system is working exactly as intended. Saved, not saved, it doesn't really matter, because logic tells us that either way, it is what the person entity who set the entire thing up wants anyway.

The bible might *say* they want everyone to be saved, and of course that simply means that the system wants the bible to say that - logically it certainly is not true.

I think you are taking this waaay too literally. Even in the Bible God gets all pissy because he cannot get his way. If he was supposed to be literally omnipotent he would just make the Jews behave.

[garbon]

Again, omnipotent.

He could give us a free will, and set it up so we don't fuck it up as well.

Or set it up so lots and lots less fuck it up, or lots more fuck it up.

His perfect knowledge means that he already knew exactly how many would fuck it up, so it must be the case that he in fact wants exactly as many to fuck it up as HAS fucked it up.

So no worries, the system is working exactly as intended. Saved, not saved, it doesn't really matter, because logic tells us that either way, it is what the person entity who set the entire thing up wants anyway.

The bible might *say* they want everyone to be saved, and of course that simply means that the system wants the bible to say that - logically it certainly is not true.

I think you are taking this waaay too literally. Even in the Bible God gets all pissy because he cannot get his way. If he was supposed to be literally omnipotent he would just make the Jews behave.

So he's metaphorically omnipotent?

[Valmy]

So he's metaphorically omnipotent?

Well if the core book has God not being Omnipotent maybe that is not as fundamental as everybody thinks? It is a spiritual quality of some sort. Jumping up and down demanding he be consistently and logically omnipotent when it seems pretty clear that was never claimed in that sense seems pretty absurd.

Anyway this science shit doesn't bother me. If you want science read a science book.

[garbon]

So he's metaphorically omnipotent?

Well if the core book has God not being Omnipotent maybe that is not as fundamental as everybody thinks? It is a spiritual quality of some sort.

Anyway this science shit doesn't bother me. If you want science read a science book.

Nice edit which was probably good as your original post didn't exactly make sense with you saying you didn't know what literal omnipotence was.

That last bit seems like a strange thing as this isn't really a science discussion other than yes in some fashion logic is a science. Remember it started though with Marti explaining to me why Jesus doesn't continue to grant free passes to heaven to virtuous pagans.

[Berkut]

So he's metaphorically omnipotent?

Well if the core book has God not being Omnipotent maybe that is not as fundamental as everybody thinks? It is a spiritual quality of some sort. Jumping up and down demanding he be consistently and logically omnipotent when it seems pretty clear that was never claimed in that sense seems pretty absurd.

Anyway this science shit doesn't bother me. If you want science read a science book.

Science? Who is talking about science?

If you want to posit a non-omnipotent God, that is fine - but there are kind of some logical issues with that as well. I mean, this is the guy who literally created the universe right? From nothing?

Is this the same god we are talking about?

I mean, if he created the universe, and created all the rules that govern the universe as well, then isn't he pretty much by default omnipotent, regardless of whether or not you believe it to be metaporical or not?

I suppose we could hypothesize some kind of deity that has the power to create the universe from nothingness, but does NOT have the understanding to know what he is doing, or how it would turn out?

I think you are getting pretty far, at that point, from the God of Christianity though...