Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[garbon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't people who work in the UK qualify for a range of benefits as well?

Yes, they qualify for the same benefits as the natives (or did, part of Cameron's deal is a rather marginal reduction of this IIRC); they also pay the same taxes etc so this seems very reasonable to me.

I think one of the things that rankles the Out voters is when one member of the family comes over, gets work and sends child benefits home, where it's worth considerably more, rather than being spent benefiting the UK economy.

Has that been shown to be a significant drain or is it just in the camp of 'things I dislike but generally don't have a great impact on me'?

[Monoriu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't people who work in the UK qualify for a range of benefits as well?

Yes, they qualify for the same benefits as the natives (or did, part of Cameron's deal is a rather marginal reduction of this IIRC); they also pay the same taxes etc so this seems very reasonable to me.

I think one of the things that rankles the Out voters is when one member of the family comes over, gets work and sends child benefits home, where it's worth considerably more, rather than being spent benefiting the UK economy.

a) it is a valid complaint I think, as it is not fair

b) if the same people do not like East Euro immigration they will get a rude awakening when all those divided families will just move in together in the UK 

Even if it is a valid complaint (which I doubt), the remedy of leaving the EU is far too extreme.  It is like suggesting that the leg should be chopped off for some knee problem. 

[Brazen]

£27 to £55 million a year, depending on which sources you believe. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that huge, but like I said it's not being re-invested in the UK economy and the amount is based on UK living costs. I couldn't imagine moving to, say, France, and claiming benefit for a child I've left the father looking after in the UK, and that's without much difference in living costs. 

[Brazen]

BTW I'm reserving the word Brexit for when I eventually leave Languish.

[Eddie Teach]

Why would you contemplate such a thing? 

[Brazen]

Why would you contemplate such a thing? 

Just so I can use the word Brexit.

[Zanza]

Not that I was on the leaving side of things, but what has really convinced me that the Leavers are just silly was learning that EU-partner countries, like Norway (whom are used as examples for why Brexit is a good idea) have to keep to the same EU regulations on products and such in order to trade with EU, as regular members.
The only practical difference is that they don't have a say in the stuff they have to keep to.

So, basically, the pro-Brexit people are arguing that for more independence, you should drop all your rights while keeping all your responsibilites. Brilliant.

According to the brochure I found, they want a mutual recognition of national standards, i.e. the way it works with extra-EEA trade agreements. Those are usually much more limited in scope though. It would mean that if Britain sets a standard on e.g. product safety, the EU would recognize that standard even if it is less strong than its own standard. So both sides agree on the lowest common denominator. It's the main point of criticism regarding TTIP.
I fail to see what the EU can gain from agreeing to such a deal with the UK - especially if it is as broad as the current single market. I guess we could agree on such a deal if we limit it to certain commodities, similar to the Korea FTA or so.

[Zanza]

£27 to £55 million a year, depending on which sources you believe. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that huge, but like I said it's not being re-invested in the UK economy and the amount is based on UK living costs. I couldn't imagine moving to, say, France, and claiming benefit for a child I've left the father looking after in the UK, and that's without much difference in living costs.

So we are talking about 0.003% to 0.007% of the UK's government budget? If that's really a major concern, I am sure we can just give you another 27-55 million rebate...

[Tamas]

Not that I was on the leaving side of things, but what has really convinced me that the Leavers are just silly was learning that EU-partner countries, like Norway (whom are used as examples for why Brexit is a good idea) have to keep to the same EU regulations on products and such in order to trade with EU, as regular members.
The only practical difference is that they don't have a say in the stuff they have to keep to.

So, basically, the pro-Brexit people are arguing that for more independence, you should drop all your rights while keeping all your responsibilites. Brilliant.

According to the brochure I found, they want a mutual recognition of national standards, i.e. the way it works with extra-EEA trade agreements. Those are usually much more limited in scope though. It would mean that if Britain sets a standard on e.g. product safety, the EU would recognize that standard even if it is less strong than its own standard. So both sides agree on the lowest common denominator. It's the main point of criticism regarding TTIP.
I fail to see what the EU can gain from agreeing to such a deal with the UK - especially if it is as broad as the current single market. I guess we could agree on such a deal if we limit it to certain commodities, similar to the Korea FTA or so.

That's the other thing: I can't see how the EU could agree to such a thing. If they do, EVERYONE remaining in the EU will want the same special treatment. Who would want to get the disadvantages together with the benefits, when one member can get rid of them?

Now of course if there is one organisation who would be able to commit such a suicide, it's the EU, but that makes me more worried about a Brexit, not less.

[Eddie Teach]

That's the other thing: I can't see how the EU could agree to such a thing. If they do, EVERYONE remaining in the EU will want the same special treatment. Who would want to get the disadvantages together with the benefits, when one member can get rid of them?

Now of course if there is one organisation who would be able to commit such a suicide, it's the EU, but that makes me more worried about a Brexit, not less.

Wanting it is one thing, but I think the UK adds more value to the EU than most members, so they can leverage it for better deals. Theoretically.

[Tamas]

If you think a lot of other members will not launch a loud populistic tantrum after UK gets a sweet deal, you haven't been paying attention to Europe.

[Josquius]

That's the other thing: I can't see how the EU could agree to such a thing. If they do, EVERYONE remaining in the EU will want the same special treatment. Who would want to get the disadvantages together with the benefits, when one member can get rid of them?

Now of course if there is one organisation who would be able to commit such a suicide, it's the EU, but that makes me more worried about a Brexit, not less.

You know, acually the prospect of the EU commiting suicide worries me a lot less than brexit.
If the EU is gone then all of Europe is in the same place. Some sort of EU successor would be necessary and inevitable. There would be big short term pain but in the long run it would be good to have a European UN to the EU league of nations (albeit hopefully more powerful than the incompetent UN).
Brexit though....the rest of Europe can continue to profit quite happily whilst britain devolves into ruin.

[Eddie Teach]

If you think a lot of other members will not launch a loud populistic tantrum after UK gets a sweet deal, you haven't been paying attention to Europe.

But which ones? If Germany and France accept it, people like Orban can rant all they want. Not like they're going anywhere.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The trouble with this referendum is that it is simultaneously both worrying and very boring 

.........and we are only having it at all because the Tories are so hopelessly divided on the subject.

[Josquius]

Reading a bit today....Switzerland has 3 years to act on its 2014 referendum which would pretty much mean tearing up all its agreements with the EU.
So. ...it's a shame the uk referendum is coming this year rather than in 2018. We can't see how interesting leaving the EU (which switzerland is pretty much 75% a member of) would be.