Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Barrister]

One guess:

Hamilcar still takes some joy in the suffering of people he consider stupid suffering from consequences he considers predictable (and to be fair, most of us do), but has a soft spot for the suffering of innocents (which includes animals).

50-50 on whether innocents includes children or not (with a high chance of correlating to whether Hami has children himself).

If one spends any time around farm animals they become easily dissuaded towards the idea of the innocence on animals. Chickens in particular are assholes

I've mentioned by brother and sister-in laws before.  BIL works oilfield, but they also have a ranch where they raise cattle, and also branched out into sheep with their kid now an adult and he wanted to.  So at Easter we went out there - they were in the midst of lambing (calving is a little earlier).  Baby lambs are pretty damn cute.

I know their ranch isn't necessarily representative of every farm out there, but sure seems like those cattle and sheep have a pretty sweet life out on the farm - up until they're slaughtered of course.

I don't know about the ethics that say those animals would be better off not existing at all, rather than have a happy life up until they become food.

[HVC]

Small scale farming is usually pretty humane, all things considered. factory farming is where it gets quite a bit darker.

[Sheilbh]

Incidentally on Raab - by my count at least 7 stories on the frontpage, in their own separate section on the Guardian site including pieces by six separate Westminster or Whitehall based political correspondents plus their sketch writer.

They're expanding in Manchester which is really good. But I still think that's likely part of why there's the relative lack of coverage on the SNP implosion/police fraud investigation that's arrested senior party figures. They've got three or four times as many reporters in SW1 as they have covering Scotland.

Separately I saw Stephen Bush (formerly of New Statesman and Telegraph, but now at the FT so probably reasonably good sources across all parties) noting that in terms of workplace complaints, as a reporter he definitely hears more about Labour MPs than Tory MPs. That gels with what I've heard from people who work in Westminster. And why I think this may end up being a rod for Labour's back as they've got several frontbenchers who are going to struggle if this is the standard. And I've literally never read a memoir or anything by a senior British politician who doesn't call out a few outstanding civil servants they worked with - but also complain that generally working with the civil service can be like pushing water uphill if you're trying to actually do something. I think if Labour are ambitious about their agenda then they need to be thinking about this now.

Admittedly on Raab I think the right answer is probably training, but that's something all new ministers should get early because MPs who become ministers (especially in a change of government after a long period in opposition) often have no experience managing teams bigger than their office. It's a very weird career path. I think in the private sector, or if Raab were a senior civil servant he would be forced to go on management training. But, as Bush points out, in politics all disciplinary proceedings basically end in exoneration or you lose your job with nothing in between (not least because the public would see anything in between as a whitewash).

[garbon]

In the private office settings I've been in, culture has changed around how bosses can act. Early in my career they could be quite demeaning and shout. I don't think they can get away with that now.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Perhaps Labour should  be pre-emptively sending their future ministers on training courses.

I find it interesting that it is Raab who has had the problems. There are plenty of Tory ministers who civil servants have successfully worked with. Gove is in charge of happy offices for example, I have seen no complaints about Braverman etc etc. From this I deduce that the civil servants are not "woke snowflakes" but that Raab broke the rules and is a bullying bastard.

[Tamas]

Raab always had an American Psycho look about him, I don't know why you guys are doubting these accusations.

[Sheilbh]

Raab always had an American Psycho look about him, I don't know why you guys are doubting these accusations.

I'm taking the report as correct and true. But I don't believe there are other, secret facts that the KC is hiding.

There is also very big gap between what lobby reporters were getting from the off the record sources (partiularly the Guardian). There was a lot of "there's no way he can survive this" from sources with allegations that the report either says were disproved or dismisses them.

In the private office settings I've been in, culture has changed around how bosses can act. Early in my career they could be quite demeaning and shout. I don't think they can get away with that now.

I agree - I think it's another weird thing about MPs is, given their career, they very often don't have much recent real world knowledge of what the private sector is like and make quite broad comments that make it sound like Wall Street. That's a million miles from my experience and I think is culturally quite old school - although as you say I saw a bit of it when I was starting out as a paralegal, which was at Linklaters which is where Raab trained as a solicitor, so maybe there's a bit from that (though he quickly moved into the civil service).

I thnk in any other workplace he would be told to knock it off and sent on a training course. In any other workplace his record as a manager would mean he wouldn't be in that senior a role. But also in any other workplace he wouldn't have had to say "if there's any finding against me, I'll resign."

I find it interesting that it is Raab who has had the problems. There are plenty of Tory ministers who civil servants have successfully worked with. Gove is in charge of happy offices for example, I have seen no complaints about Braverman etc etc. From this I deduce that the civil servants are not "woke snowflakes" but that Raab broke the rules and is a bullying bastard.

Yeah - and as I say there were reports (which I believe) that there was a huge shift in mood when Buckland was appointed to the MoJ. Similarly FCDO civil servants seem to really like James Cleverly. Michael Gove, as you say, is famously polite and courteous - and has the biggest record of actually delivering policies of, I'd argue, any minister since 2010. But has also spent a lot of time moaning about the "blob".

There's clearly an issue with Raab. The report is based on the Dame Sue Owen's recommendations that distinguishes between "abusive" (behaviour that is targeted and intended) and "abrasive" behaviour ("personal styles which feel like bullying or other misconduct to individuals, but isn't intended to be so and where the perpetrator may be unaware of the impact"). It comes down very firmly on the "abrasive" side with Raab.

Edit: And I like Alastair Campbell a lot, but it'll be a bit mad listening to when the Rest is Politics talks about this and the inspiration of Malcolm Tucker in the Thick Of It complains about someone's behaviour in the workplace

[mongers]

'Londoners' when is the least horrible/crowded time to visit some of the bigger London attractions like the Tower, as I'm planning some museum trips to London over the next few weeks.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Of course, especially with really important people such as government ministers, it is not just that bullying is nasty per se, what is worse is that it is ineffective and therefore stupid.

[Gups]

'Londoners' when is the least horrible/crowded time to visit some of the bigger London attractions like the Tower, as I'm planning some museum trips to London over the next few weeks.

Londoners are the least likely to go to those (I've never been to the Tower)! Hard to say, we are in full on tourist season so put luck whether you get hundreds of euro students arriving at the same time.

First thing is probably the best time or alternatively try some of the lesser known places like the Wallace

[Gups]

Of course, especially with really important people such as government ministers, it is not just that bullying is nasty per se, what is worse is that it is ineffective and therefore stupid.

I'm not bothered about Raab at all but I dislike that the law apparently defines bullying with reference to the feelings of the recepient rather than objectively

[garbon]

'Londoners' when is the least horrible/crowded time to visit some of the bigger London attractions like the Tower, as I'm planning some museum trips to London over the next few weeks.

Londoners are the least likely to go to those (I've never been to the Tower)! Hard to say, we are in full on tourist season so put luck whether you get hundreds of euro students arriving at the same time.

First thing is probably the best time or alternatively try some of the lesser known places like the Wallace

Yeah, I would say already in peak horrible times. Maybe early on a weekday?

[Jacob]

In my experience going as early as possible is the best bet for tourist attractions. People often dilly dally when on vacation so early is typically less crowded.

[mongers]

'Londoners' when is the least horrible/crowded time to visit some of the bigger London attractions like the Tower, as I'm planning some museum trips to London over the next few weeks.

Londoners are the least likely to go to those (I've never been to the Tower)! Hard to say, we are in full on tourist season so put luck whether you get hundreds of euro students arriving at the same time.

First thing is probably the best time or alternatively try some of the lesser known places like the Wallace

Thanks, yes I'm more familar with the less popular ones and used to visit the others in the better times when I used to live in London.

I just thought I'd tick off some of the 'bigger attractions' before I peg it, hence the Tower et al.

[mongers]

'Londoners' when is the least horrible/crowded time to visit some of the bigger London attractions like the Tower, as I'm planning some museum trips to London over the next few weeks.

Londoners are the least likely to go to those (I've never been to the Tower)! Hard to say, we are in full on tourist season so put luck whether you get hundreds of euro students arriving at the same time.

First thing is probably the best time or alternatively try some of the lesser known places like the Wallace

Yeah, I would say already in peak horrible times. Maybe early on a weekday?

Thanks to you and Jacob, yes that's what I feared, so I'll probably aim for first thing on a Monday or Tuesday.

At least the Tower isn't too far from Waterloo, do a short Languish-like deathmarch should get me there in time.