Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

As an aside I always get this from strangers in my hometown. The conversation goes "well, you are not from round here" to which I reply "yes I am" and then "but where are you really from?".

Thats just from not having the right accent; the town is a parochial backwater of course.

[Sheilbh]

As an aside I always get this from strangers in my hometown. The conversation goes "well, you are not from round here" to which I reply "yes I am" and then "but where are you really from?".

Thats just from not having the right accent; the town is a parochial backwater of course.

Yeah I think white people get asked "where are you from" in the UK because we're all branded on the tongue.

I sound quite posh so when I answer it then always prompts other questions - because I'm from Liverpool but I don't sound like I'm from Liverpool.

It also reminds me of growing up my dad never taking the "what do you do" question well because it's about placing you. It's asking where you belong in that person's class hierarchy.

Edit: Again tone is key - some people are interesting but there's a specific "what do you do" tone.

[The Brain]

I sound quite posh

What a shocker.

[Grey Fox]

Around here, the trick is to wait for another immigrant to ask. Never takes long.

[Tamas]

I sound quite posh

What a shocker.

I don't think you are allowed a castle without the right accent.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Sheilbh strikes me as someone who would have assiduously worked to erase his native accent in his late teens.

[The Brain]

Among Swedes of my generation it's not that uncommon to find people adopted from Africa or Asia. I honestly don't know how common this is in other countries. So even if someone looks non-ethnic-Swedish it's quite possible that their family history is Swedish as far back as anyone knows.

[Josquius]

"Lots of what some would call 'ignorance' I would call racism. It has really angered me that my children or wife can never be from St Albans if they are brown. They are always made to feel slightly 'other'."

I think this is unfair. I would differentiate between hateful racism and "grandfather racism".
Both still in the category of not good of course but ignorance is worlds apart from hate. Though it can occasionally get quite fucked up, like the Japanese lady who on seeing the German flag on my jacket decided to tell me Hitler was great.

.

It also reminds me of growing up my dad never taking the "what do you do" question well because it's about placing you. It's asking where you belong in that person's class hierarchy.

Edit: Again tone is key - some people are interesting but there's a specific "what do you do" tone.

Ah yes. Memories of university in the UK there.
"So what does your father do? Oh a joiner, how quaint"

[Duque de Bragança]

Yet Hungarians in Romania get a better treatment than in Slovakia for instance, so I am not sure it is the best example.

My point was not that all minorities are horribly treated, or even badly treated. Just that they are seen as foreign despite having lived there for centuries. 

In central and eastern Europe or all Europe as you said earlier?

Because, in the rest of Europe sometimes they are seen as part of the landscape, even if they speak another first language, have a recognized national minority status. Danes and Germans in Schleswig and Slesvig.
The Swedish-speaking Finnish citizens also (think of Finnois vs Finlandais in French  ).

It's a bit iffier for Austrians German-speaking Italians of Upper Adige/South Tyrol (for the average Italian the cliché they are good at getting ski medals for Italy) living a bit in their own, the Ladins again in North Italy being another matter, less known, but they are more of a regional minority than of a national one, IIRC. I am not sure so best ask an Italian poster.

There is also a francophone minority in Val d'Aoste, plus hellenophones and albanophones (not the recent immigrants those I am speaking of arrived in the 15th century as refugees from the Ottoman conquest) also doing reasonably well in Southern Italy.
So broad strokes are definitively not ideal for the European situations, plural compulsory.

[Admiral Yi]

TFW Yi is a full blown idiot.

Do you think there is something about having black skin that means you can't be birthed on the British Isles? That the baby of two black parents, born on British soil, immaculately comes out white as a sheet?

No.

[Jacob]

There are basically two places a black person in the UK can be from, Africa and the Caribbean.

TFW Yi is a full blown idiot.

Do you think there is something about having black skin that means you can't be birthed on the British Isles? That the baby of two black parents, born on British soil, immaculately comes out white as a sheet?

Yi, do you think a conversation like that would be appropriate when aimed at a Black American? Continuing asking where they're "really" from, because they couldn't really be from the US?

[Admiral Yi]

Yi, do you think a conversation like that would be appropriate when aimed at a Black American? Continuing asking where they're "really" from, because they couldn't really be from the US?

No, for the reason I've already stated in this thread.  Lack of records means its impossible for most black Americans to know where in Africa their ancestors came from.

I've already stated the white lady was klutzy and unperceptive about the black lady not wanting to answer, so no, continuing to ask would not be appropriate regardless of the race of the person being asked.

"Because they can't really be from the UK" is a framing device.  I got immediately from the story and the transcript that the white lady was trying to ask where the black lady's forebears had immigrated to the UK from.  A

[Sheilbh]

Related to the census data on so-called mixed ethnicity households:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/02/joys-trials-britains-increasingly-mixed-race-households-census-2021

Interesting stats in that too - looking at the household data more than a tenth of the population live with people of another ethnicity. Looking at the census map, as you'd expect, it's more partnerships than inter-generational - although the map of any other living arrangement is basically just a map of university towns and the housing crisis.

[Sheilbh]

Shows how ridiculous FPP is when the Lib Dems lose a quarter of their vote share but more than double their MPs but woudl still feel pretty hard done by.

Yeah - and Scotland. The SNP winning just over 40% of the vote and 42 of the 59 seats available.

I actually wouldn't dismiss the possibility of a result like this. Labour are nowhere near the force they were in 1997 but the Tories are in a much, much wose place than they were then. Aside from an act of God (or war), I can't see how they dig themselves out of this mess particulalry when they have no unity (with new fault lines over pro and anti growth MPs widening) and can't get any legislation of any importance through.

Yeah - I mentally can't see it happening because it doesn't feel like the 90s in terms of this irresistable Labour landslide on its way. But objectively it's where all the polls are pointing, the Britain Predicts model was pretty accurate in Chester and seems good.

And I just can't see a way out for the Tories.

I saw lots of people trying to make Reform a thing at this byelection, saying right-wing dissatisfaction with Sunak would create space for a new party to the right like UKIP before it. Instead they lost their deposit and came fifth, behind the Greens. I don't see any sign that people even know Reform exist outside of the terminally online right. That might change if Farage were to get involved. On the one hand it probably helps Sunak survive if Reform actually keep polling at under 5%, but on the other there's not another party of the right to squeeze for their votes. The polls at the minute basically have the Tories and Reform on 30% while all other parties who are basically anti-Tory in this election are collectively on 70% - that's a reverse from the last few elections and I can't see a way out for them.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I think a lot of people are turning away from the Tories simply because of the cost of living problem and its direct effects on them. Since things are going to get worse over the next year or two I therefore expect a Labour landslide. However, the labour support is very soft, Starmer and crew will need to show excellent progress by 2027/28 or the Tory shitshow will recommence c.2029.