Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

What's the bets theres a large cross over between the anti covid passports brigade and those who say we absolutely need to have strong voter ID laws?

Maybe but that's just weird British politics. Trying to operate a modern state without a national ID system is just lame.

Oh no. National ID cards are absolutely off the table for the sort I'm talking about.

[Sheilbh]

What's the bets theres a large cross over between the anti covid passports brigade and those who say we absolutely need to have strong voter ID laws?

Maybe but that's just weird British politics. Trying to operate a modern state without a national ID system is just lame.

You almost had me but I've swung back to hardline anti-ID after the French Interior Minister said the UK needs to make itself less attractive to migrants by implementing ID cards - and that is exactly how the police would use it. Just asking for papers from anyone who isn't white or who looks foreign - so no.

Having said that - I would back a covid passport. So I'm like the anti-Tyr's point and hypocritical in another way

[Tamas]

What's the bets theres a large cross over between the anti covid passports brigade and those who say we absolutely need to have strong voter ID laws?

Maybe but that's just weird British politics. Trying to operate a modern state without a national ID system is just lame.

You almost had me but I've swung back to hardline anti-ID after the French Interior Minister said the UK needs to make itself less attractive to migrants by implementing ID cards - and that is exactly how the police would use it. Just asking for papers from anyone who isn't white or who looks foreign - so no.

Having said that - I would back a covid passport. So I'm like the anti-Tyr's point and hypocritical in another way

Oh come on. I have to prove my identity regularly. Dealing with officials, businesses, etc. If you don't have a driving licence that is either ridiculously difficult, or laughably easy to fake, like using a DEBIT CARD to identify yourself. It's just backward nonsense. Look at the country FFS we are perfectly capable of having a right wing government dumping old people who arrived here 5 years old "back" to Haiti to die just because they lost/never had their paperwork (and they are black), or beat up women by the police for holding a vigil, or ignoring the murder of gays because why not, or letting people drown in the Channel because omg migrants.

the lack of an ID is not saving you from anything except from having it hard to steal your identity.

[The Brain]

Why would the police ask for papers just because there is an ID card?

[Josquius]

Yeah, I am against the sort of law they have in Holland where you absolutely have to carry your ID with you at all times.
But the existence of a standard national ID to use for state interactions seems sensible to me. Absolutely mandatory this should be free however, and when it comes to voting the old way should be valid too.

[The Brain]

Requiring that people always carry ID is for nutty police states.

[Josquius]

In other news. This minute from parliament is worth a watch. Painful to say the least.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PutneyFleur/status/1470383841022029826

It's like..the oh so punchable mogg is just winking at the camera and admitting brexit is all bullshit but nerr we won didn't we.

[Sheilbh]

Oh come on. I have to prove my identity regularly. Dealing with officials, businesses, etc. If you don't have a driving licence that is either ridiculously difficult, or laughably easy to fake, like using a DEBIT CARD to identify yourself. It's just backward nonsense. Look at the country FFS we are perfectly capable of having a right wing government dumping old people who arrived here 5 years old "back" to Haiti to die just because they lost/never had their paperwork (and they are black), or beat up women by the police for holding a vigil, or ignoring the murder of gays because why not, or letting people drown in the Channel because omg migrants.

But I think all of those are bad things and I'm not sure that adding another piece of paperwork this time one the police can demand would help with them.

Also I think the issues with the Met go far beyond a right-wing government. Cressida Dick was, by all accounts, Khan's appointments - and she is jointly accountable to Khan and Patel. The deaths and cover-ups of Ian Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes, the spy cops in the environmental movement, the National Black Police Association boycotting the Met all happened under a Labour government. It's institutional. Ironically on police reform Theresa May as Home Secretary was probably the best recent one - there's a reason the police union issued a statement celebrating her resignation as PM noting her "disdain and contempt" for the police and she reformed stop and search in a way that reduced the overall number of searches and the number of illegal searches but not the number of arrests from it, needless to say those changes have been unpicked by Patel.

Why would the police ask for papers just because there is an ID card?

If you give them a new power or a new tool, it will be abused. That's my default assumption with police (and intelligence agencies) - and most other government bodies. They will go to the edge of what they can do and start pushing. With police (and intelligence agencies) that will disproportionately impact minority communities especially if it relates to immigration.

I also think that's implied in Darmanin's remarks that the UK should be a less attractive place - and as Tamas notes I think it's based on an ignorant assumption that just because there's no ID cards there's no checking so people can just disappear which is wrong, especially following the hostile environment policies.

Edit: As ever - I see a bit of Telegraph Money or the FT's How to Spend It and am suddenly a Maoist:

[The Brain]

Why would the police ask for papers just because there is an ID card?

If you give them a new power or a new tool, it will be abused. That's my default assumption with police (and intelligence agencies) - and most other government bodies. They will go to the edge of what they can do and start pushing. With police (and intelligence agencies) that will disproportionately impact minority communities especially if it relates to immigration.

If the police starts asking for ID for no real reason then that certainly is a symptom of a police force that needs to be disciplined, but at least it's easy to protect yourself. Just don't have an ID card or if you do have one don't carry it.

Sweden has a national ID card. You don't have to own one, and you certainly don't have to carry ID at all times.

[garbon]

Why would the police ask for papers just because there is an ID card?

If you give them a new power or a new tool, it will be abused. That's my default assumption with police (and intelligence agencies) - and most other government bodies. They will go to the edge of what they can do and start pushing. With police (and intelligence agencies) that will disproportionately impact minority communities especially if it relates to immigration.

If the police starts asking for ID for no real reason then that certainly is a symptom of a police force that needs to be disciplined, but at least it's easy to protect yourself. Just don't have an ID card or if you do have one don't carry it.

How would that be protection?

[The Brain]

Edit: As ever - I see a bit of Telegraph Money or the FT's How to Spend It and am suddenly a Maoist:

Pro-tip: live in a civilized country where there is no inheritance tax.

[The Brain]

Why would the police ask for papers just because there is an ID card?

If you give them a new power or a new tool, it will be abused. That's my default assumption with police (and intelligence agencies) - and most other government bodies. They will go to the edge of what they can do and start pushing. With police (and intelligence agencies) that will disproportionately impact minority communities especially if it relates to immigration.

If the police starts asking for ID for no real reason then that certainly is a symptom of a police force that needs to be disciplined, but at least it's easy to protect yourself. Just don't have an ID card or if you do have one don't carry it.

How would that be protection?

What do you mean?

[Admiral Yi]

I don't reallly understand the hard left's continuing obeisance to Russia. It's not like it's still a left-wing country in any sense at all. Is it just a muscle memory or something? Or an enemy's enemy type thing?

Peaceniks think only the West can wage aggressive war.

[Tamas]

But I think all of those are bad things and I'm not sure that adding another piece of paperwork this time one the police can demand would help with them.

No my point is that the lack of an ID card has not prevented any of those.

And I would argue that the Windrush scandal could not have happened with one, at least.

You can argue that the London police being prejudiced and terrible is not a right-wing creation because the latest police chief is a Labour appointment, but I very much doubt she have been able to turn the whole culture of the force drastically around if the officers opposed that switch.

And its beside the point. There is a lot of utility to a national ID card and the theoretical liberty benefits of not having one are being proven to be non-existent by the UK itself. 

[garbon]

After all this time, I still don't get why you are so horny for a national ID.