Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

At least I hope it's demoralising for police officers.
I know a few good people who became cops but there's also the more American cliche of the sort of person attracted to the police as seen in several recent scandals... I imagine that sort is rather happy they get to pick on teh left eyes.

And I would agree. Palestinian Action seem pretty dumb, harmful for their claimed goals....but their crimes weren't terrorism. They were different crimes.
I'm sure there's been a few arrests of non PA general pro Palestine people due to this law.

[Razgovory]

You are quite right, the real villain here is the government. It must be quite demoralizing for many police officers to wade in and arrest so many otherwise respectable people on the grounds of terrorism.

I should also note here that I don't approve of Palestine Action; but criminal damage carries a sentence of up to ten years and with aggravated criminal damage (which maybe damaging a fighter jet might count as) a life sentence csn be imposed.

The proscription is not necessary; I conclude that the main aim is therefore to suppress dissent on the UK's policy towards Israel and Palestine, which is pretty contemptible.

10 years is pretty stiff.  Being wrong should not be a criminal offense.

[garbon]

The proscription is not necessary; I conclude that the main aim is therefore to suppress dissent on the UK's policy towards Israel and Palestine, which is pretty contemptible.

Why attribute the government's action to something evil when the mundane might suffice? Like this group has been regularly committing crimes and the government was tired of its disruptions, especially given escalation to taking fight to military installations.

I can't learn about Palestine Action directly from themselves (as due to being a terrorist group, their website is down in the UK), but I did look at this article from thenewarab (which I figured if had any bias, might be in favour of the group as one of the founders sometimes contributes) and then a CNN explainer.

https://www.newarab.com/news/what-palestine-action-and-why-uk-moving-ban-it
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/06/uk/palestine-action-group-ban-protests-uk-intl

Group has two key founders, one whose family was forced to flee Israel in 1967 and another who was at some point part of an anarchist Catholic movement.

Group was founded to disrupt weapons manufacturers connected to the Israeli government.

Since their founding in 2020, they've spent time vandalises and disrupts work at the offices and facilities of Elbit Systems, a major Israeli arms manufacture.  New Arab has that they 'laimed responsibility for around 300 incidents in the UK, including actions at universities, Elbit factories, and other defence facilities linked to Israel.'

Most of the group's actions have been in response to Israeli assaults on Gaza, with one notable protest in 2021 when activists climbed the headquarters of Elbit, claiming the direct action led to the site being "shut down".

In the same year, four members of Palestine Action dressed in boiler suits climbed onto the roof of an Elbit-owned drone factory in Leicester in response to Israel's war on Gaza, which killed 256 Palestinians.

In April 2024, the group targeted Somerset County Hall, a Grade II-listed building owned by Somerset Council, by splashing it with red paint in protest at the council leasing a building to Elbit near Bristol.

And CNN take:

Since its founding, Palestine Action has also, among other actions, occupied, blockaded, spray painted and disrupted the Israeli-French drone company UAV Tactical Systems and the global arms giant Leonardo. It has slashed and spray-painted a portrait of former British foreign secretary Arthur Balfour – whose 1917 declaration expressed London's support for establishing a "national home for the Jewish people" in British-mandate Palestine – at Trinity College, Cambridge, and "abducted" two busts of Israel's first president, Chaim Weizmann, from the University of Manchester.

So since being founded, they've been engaged in various forms of 'low-level' criminality.

According to New Arab, on one of the founders:

Ammori, a frequent contributor to The New Arab, said of the group's actions: "To build a movement strong enough to bring down all ten of Elbit's sites in Britain, we had to be both disruptive and sustained. One-off actions weren't going to cut it. Every minute we didn't act was a minute for Elbit to make another killing. In order to defeat them, we had to bombard them."

In an interview with Prospect, Ammori acknowledged that activists "could end up in jail" if "you do these types of actions."

The other founder also found himself in hot water in 2023 and some actions were focused on destroying property (weapons):

Co-founder Richard Barnard was arrested in 2023 on charges of expressing support for a proscribed organisation, in violation of Section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000.

The arrest was linked to a protest held the day after Hamas's surprise attack on southern Israel in October 2023, which killed around 1,200 people and triggered the ongoing war in Gaza, where at least 55,000 Palestinians have since been killed.

Several members of the group have been jailed, including William Plastow, Ellie Kamio, and Zoe Rogers, after members of Palestine Action stormed an Elbit manufacturing hub in Bristol, dismantling Israeli weapons.

I cite all of the above to make the point that this is an organisation whose members have spent its brief existence routinely committing crimes as a matter of course.

Then CNN has this on the rationale to mark as a terrorist organisation:
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/06/uk/palestine-action-group-ban-protests-uk-intl

The UK government, citing an assessment from the country's Joint Terrorism Assessment Centre, said that Palestine Action had crossed the line from protest to sabotage. Cooper framed the move as necessary to safeguard national security, stating that Palestine Action is "not a non-violent organization" and has a history of "unacceptable criminal damage."

But British authorities have had their eyes on the group for some time.

In May 2024, an independent government review on political violence and disruption compared Palestine Action and climate activists Just Stop Oil to "terror groups" and recommended their actions be banned.

"Banning terror groups has made it harder for their activists to plan crimes –- that approach should be extended to extreme protest groups too," said John Woodcock, the review's author, who sits in the United Kingdom's upper legislative chamber as Lord Walney.

All in all, that feels less like a government terrified about its citizen's reactions to its stance on Israel and rather more like a government taking heavy-handed action against a tiresome, disruptive group.

[garbon]

As an aside, I wonder if those most recently arrested could better help Palestine if they simply started protesting under a different moniker. There is not reason that they have to protest in support of the Palestine Action brand.

I cynically think people are doing so as this is now less about helping Palestine and more about UK freedom of speech.

[HVC]

From the blurbs they sound a lot like the just stop oil idiots

[Sheilbh]

10 years is pretty stiff.  Being wrong should not be a criminal offense.

Just to be clear the 10 years is a maximum sentence for criminal damage - which is the stuff they've been identified as a terrorist organisation for.

I have no issue with prosecutions for vandalism or criminal damage. They are out there sabotaging defence factories and RAF bases etc. Those are criminal acts. But they're not terrorism.

And that's why the speech bit comes in.

As an aside, I wonder if those most recently arrested could better help Palestine if they simply started protesting under a different moniker. There is not reason that they have to protest in support of the Palestine Action brand.

I cynically think people are doing so as this is now less about helping Palestine and more about UK freedom of speech.

I think it's both and they're aligned. But also, frankly, once you've got the brand identity and the police making arrests that very few people support - you don't give that up. That's the dream for protesters/people doing civil disobedience.

Edit: I'd add I think Palestine Action are very smart in the arrests - so in the latest batch a disabled RAF veteran using a walker, a blind and disabled man previously arrested last month, an NHS midwife and two mental health nurses, Anglican priest in her 80s plus a retired doctor in her 80s.

From the blurbs they sound a lot like the just stop oil idiots

I think there's a fair bit of overlap - but Palestine Action, I think, target more defence manufacturing and installations rather than the general public, which I think does have an impact on public sympathy.

Totally separately I mentioned that the race for Labour deputy leader will be interesting - and is likely to overshadow the Labour Conference.

I've always liked Andy Burnham because of how blatant he is. So I enjoyed him saying he'd support Lou Haigh or Lucy Powell as Deputy Leader - both soft left women from Manchester who are close to Burnham and also two women who've been fired from the cabinet by Starmer I'd expect a fair bit more of that as each faction gets their candidate in line and I suspect all of them will be using it to subtly/not so subtly take a dig at Starmer.

I do wonder if the local elections and Senedd and Scottish Parliament elections in May next year will be crucial for Starmer/present an opportunity to move against him.

Edit: Meanwhile give Rayner was Housing Secretary. Planning reform is arguably the big lever the government could pull in their "laser-focus on growth", but also a big electoral promise of 1.5 million new homes this parliament. Approvals for building new homes this year are at the lowest levels since 2012 - so since the tail end of the financial crisis.

[Sheilbh]

Starmer did a "reset" of Number 10 in late August. I think this was his third since taking office - and then launched "phase 2" of the government (via some exceptionally lacklustre social media clips - I have no idea who is doing the video comms but they're really bad at their job/a saboteur). Which involved announcing what they'd be focusing on in this "phase". As part of this "reset" he scrapped the "Mission Delivery Unit" (there's been a lot of academic writing about "mission-driven organisations" that helped inspire this) - which included dozens of Cabinet Office officials and very senior civil servants.

Someone has counted that since coming to office Starmer has announced 30 different priorities: missions, foundations, first steps, milestones, pillars.

Again I'm reminded of the line that "to govern is to choose" and I think Starmer's biggest problem is that he won't, or can't. I think partly because he doesn't know his own politics/mind well enough.

Semi-relatedly he appointed someone to Downing Street who'd been senior on his leadership campaign (and then returned to lead a left-wing think tank before taking a job in NHS England). Their role was a bit unspecified but their job was described as to be the "strategic architect" for Starmer's government, which helped clear it up.

They've been removed after two weeks. Apparently there was an internal report from his time at the think tank commissioned by their trustees about his "confrontational, often aggressive communication style" including at least one instance of him being "physically angry" and noting that he had "gender issues" with an "aggressive and dismissive tone with women". There was also a vote of no confidence on him by union members at the think tank. Apparently several Labour and government figures had warned about appointing him. But here we are. He was seen as more on the soft left side of Starmer's world so possibly a factional element in this coming out now.

Meanwhile, as I say, Burnham on manoeuvres, plus (I suspect) the right of the party trying to work out what they need to do and when they need to move to stop Burnham and get Streeting. (As a total aside an under-rated bit of the story is that a huge swathe of the Labour leadership - including Starmer and Streeting - are within a few thousand votes of losing their seats to Gaza Independent candidates.)

What a relief we've escaped the torrid psychodrama of the last few years of the Tories (I am so angry at all this - biggest majority in decade )

Edit: Meanwhile reports that Stamer's identified Baroness Casey to come into Number 10 and help change things - the latest in his innovative "just one more career civil servant to drive change across government" strategy

[Gups]

Be pretty difficult for Burnham to get into Parliament I would have thought. But Starmer has to go at some point before the election.

[PJL]

Be pretty difficult for Burnham to get into Parliament I would have thought. But Starmer has to go at some point before the election.

I would not be surprised if he resigned by 2027.

[Sheilbh]

Be pretty difficult for Burnham to get into Parliament I would have thought. But Starmer has to go at some point before the election.

Yeah I think that might be part of what's going on - I think Burnham would be the favourite if he's available. But I think he's also said he won't do a double job and he's Mayor until 2028. So I think there's a big incentive to move quickly (perhaps after the May elections) if you want to replace Starmer and avoid Burnham.

[Josquius]

Can Mayors not quit?

I think doing a Carney and leaving it till the election might well be too late. Though given how presidential people think things are these days....

[Sheilbh]

They can, but I think he's said he won't. So that would be an immediate challenge. The government have been looking at legally banning mayors from also being an MP which seems pretty blatantly aimed at Burnham.

I'd mean doing a Carney as running for the leadership without being an MP, which might be possible - I can't remember, either the Tories or Labour, require a leadership candidate to be an MP but can't remember which.

[PJL]

They can, but I think he's said he won't. So that would be an immediate challenge. The government have been looking at legally banning mayors from also being an MP which seems pretty blatantly aimed at Burnham.

I'd mean doing a Carney as running for the leadership without being an MP, which might be possible - I can't remember, either the Tories or Labour, require a leadership candidate to be an MP but can't remember which.

Given the way things are going for both parties, I wonder if for future leadership elections, that the MP requirement for leader will end up being relaxed to something more like the model used by the Liberals in Canada.

[Josquius]

They can, but I think he's said he won't. So that would be an immediate challenge. The government have been looking at legally banning mayors from also being an MP which seems pretty blatantly aimed at Burnham.

I'd mean doing a Carney as running for the leadership without being an MP, which might be possible - I can't remember, either the Tories or Labour, require a leadership candidate to be an MP but can't remember which.

I meant it as that, and leaving it until the election.

[Gups]

They can, but I think he's said he won't. So that would be an immediate challenge. The government have been looking at legally banning mayors from also being an MP which seems pretty blatantly aimed at Burnham.

I'd mean doing a Carney as running for the leadership without being an MP, which might be possible - I can't remember, either the Tories or Labour, require a leadership candidate to be an MP but can't remember which.

You have to be an MP to run for Labour leader.