Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Well, it's an interesting article though there are big chunks that smack of apologia and obfuscation.

The article mentions the 15% of Palestinians who favor expulsion.  Should we assume the other 85% are in favor of a peaceful, unified multi-ethnic state? 

I've seen varying reports of what people actually want.
This talks of a recent poll that shows support for a two state solution has gone down from 59% to 24%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/israel-palestine-is-the-two-state-solution-the-answer-to-the-crisis

Which would suggest yes, most of them favour a multi-ethnic state.

There's also a confederation option which is apparently a completely different thing altogether to either of those- and I doubt I'm alone in being confused into which box this would fall.

Or we could ask some of your protestors, particularly the ones who chanted from the river to the sea, if they favor that sort of state.

Since the phrase became a mainstream thing in the past few weeks I've seen several interviews with those chanting it and I can't recall any of them saying it means ethnic cleansing. As said most are pretty ignorant of its history and how it is regarded by Jewish groups and just take it as meaning the Palestinian people should be free.

Well, it's an interesting article though there are big chunks that smack of apologia and obfuscation.

The article mentions the 15% of Palestinians who favor expulsion.  Should we assume the other 85% are in favor of a peaceful, unified multi-ethnic state?  Or we could ask some of your protestors, particularly the ones who chanted from the river to the sea, if they favor that sort of state.

I'm sure she wants peaceful coexistence.  She even has a happy little parachute for some reason.

Damn. You got me. Forget all other evidence suggesting a minority not too dissimilar in size to the shithead minority in most countries are like this, this one photo conclusively proves all Palestinians are genocidal lunatics.

[Gups]

Well, it's an interesting article though there are big chunks that smack of apologia and obfuscation.

The article mentions the 15% of Palestinians who favor expulsion.  Should we assume the other 85% are in favor of a peaceful, unified multi-ethnic state? 

I've seen varying reports of what people actually want.
This talks of a recent poll that shows support for a two state solution has gone down from 59% to 24%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/israel-palestine-is-the-two-state-solution-the-answer-to-the-crisis

Which would suggest yes, most of them favour a multi-ethnic state.

Wow, that's one hell of an implication. To almost anyone else, it would suggest that they favour a single ethnic Palestinian state.

Here's a more detailed study, albeit a year old. The israelis don't appear to be much more compromising either.

https://pcpsr.org/en/node/928

Each side perceives itself as an exclusive victim (84% of Palestinians and 84% of Israeli Jews), while an overwhelming majority of Palestinians (90%) but only a smaller majority of Israeli Jews (63%) think this suffering grants them with a moral right to do anything they deem as necessary for survival. A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.

[Josquius]

Well, it's an interesting article though there are big chunks that smack of apologia and obfuscation.

The article mentions the 15% of Palestinians who favor expulsion.  Should we assume the other 85% are in favor of a peaceful, unified multi-ethnic state? 

I've seen varying reports of what people actually want.
This talks of a recent poll that shows support for a two state solution has gone down from 59% to 24%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/israel-palestine-is-the-two-state-solution-the-answer-to-the-crisis

Which would suggest yes, most of them favour a multi-ethnic state.

Wow, that's one hell of an implication. To almost anyone else, it would suggest that they favour a single ethnic Palestinian state.

Another poll shows only 15% support ethnic cleansing of Israelis.  We were looking at the other 85% already.

Each side perceives itself as an exclusive victim (84% of Palestinians and 84% of Israeli Jews), while an overwhelming majority of Palestinians (90%) but only a smaller majority of Israeli Jews (63%) think this suffering grants them with a moral right to do anything they deem as necessary for survival. A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.

That sounds fair to me considering how little the Palestinians currently have and the Israelis are steadily day by day taking ever more.

[Admiral Yi]

@Squeeze

If you click the embedded Gallup link in the Guardian article you get more detail.

"Before war broke out, four in five Palestinians (81%) said they no longer believe that a permanent peace of any kind will ever prevail, including 84% living in the Gaza Strip. "

This makes a lot more sense to me than hope for a kumbaya unified state.  Palestinians, and Israelis, expect to be in a permanent state of war.  That's what the people saying from the river to the sea think.

[Gups]

Another poll shows only 15% support ethnic cleansing of Israelis.  We were looking at the other 85% already.

Nope. The article from where you get your 15% links to the same poll that I did. the 15% figure comes from a question which posits only limited options. Others include a 1 state solution (10%), apartheid (10%) with a majority supported a 2 state solution. The Israeli breakdown is similar.

As I mentioned, this poll comes from 2022. The Gallup poll you poted shows that a drop in Palestinian support from 59% to 24%. Presumably that 35% loss is now split in some way between 1 state, apartheid and explusion. You have mistakenly (because you haven't bothered clicking through the links in the articles) been mixing different polls.

[Gups]

Well, it's an interesting article though there are big chunks that smack of apologia and obfuscation.

The article mentions the 15% of Palestinians who favor expulsion.  Should we assume the other 85% are in favor of a peaceful, unified multi-ethnic state? 

I've seen varying reports of what people actually want.
This talks of a recent poll that shows support for a two state solution has gone down from 59% to 24%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/israel-palestine-is-the-two-state-solution-the-answer-to-the-crisis

Which would suggest yes, most of them favour a multi-ethnic state.

Wow, that's one hell of an implication. To almost anyone else, it would suggest that they favour a single ethnic Palestinian state.

Another poll shows only 15% support ethnic cleansing of Israelis.  We were looking at the other 85% already.

Each side perceives itself as an exclusive victim (84% of Palestinians and 84% of Israeli Jews), while an overwhelming majority of Palestinians (90%) but only a smaller majority of Israeli Jews (63%) think this suffering grants them with a moral right to do anything they deem as necessary for survival. A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.

That sounds fair to me considering how little the Palestinians currently have and the Israelis are steadily day by day taking ever more.

Yuou agree that they have a moral right to do anything they deem as necessary for survival?

[Tamas]

For many years us and everyone else have been rightly calling out how it is a BS excuse that alt-right types would be making all kinds of racist or homophobic slurs "for the lolz". But for the "lets replace Israel with Palestine" chant, it's ok to say "that's not how we mean it"? Bloody hell that's the same excuse I have heard from people using the N word, especially when doing so in Hungarian "well that's how they were always called"

[Tamas]

Otherwise, I am happy to see Cameron's appointment has been a complete success in meeting its objectives: making the whole press spin around it for two days instead of what an abject failures the Tories are.

[Josquius]

@Squeeze

If you click the embedded Gallup link in the Guardian article you get more detail.

"Before war broke out, four in five Palestinians (81%) said they no longer believe that a permanent peace of any kind will ever prevail, including 84% living in the Gaza Strip. "

This makes a lot more sense to me than hope for a kumbaya unified state.  Palestinians, and Israelis, expect to be in a permanent state of war.  That's what the people saying from the river to the sea think.

Not believing there's a good chance that something will ever happen !=  not wanting that thing to happen.

For many years us and everyone else have been rightly calling out how it is a BS excuse that alt-right types would be making all kinds of racist or homophobic slurs "for the lolz". But for the "lets replace Israel with Palestine" chant, it's ok to say "that's not how we mean it"? Bloody hell that's the same excuse I have heard from people using the N word, especially when doing so in Hungarian "well that's how they were always called"

Quite the opposite situation.

Palestinians are saying Palestine should be free and they're specifically saying they don't mean others should be unfree, that they want equal rights, etc...
Opponents of Palestinian freedom are going "OMG you want to kill all the Jews. Thats what you really mean.". These folk have had the most successful PR campaign in bending the ear of the west's leaders and terrifying Jewish people (with the help of stupid Palestinians and their supporters).

With the N word you've a situation where the actual people themselves are saying "That's bad. Don't say that" and a outside group are going "But we want to".
With from the river to the sea you've the group who it actually refers to going "We want to say this. It means we want freedom.", most of them having zero killing connected to it, and others going "But its bad. Don't say that".

As said when it comes to western supporters of Palestine I'd say the err on the side of caution and not to say it. No matter how innocuous the phrase actually is, it has come to really cause worry amongst Jews and whip the right into a frenzy.
But when Palestinians say it about themselves... Who am I to judge?

Well, it's an interesting article though there are big chunks that smack of apologia and obfuscation.

The article mentions the 15% of Palestinians who favor expulsion.  Should we assume the other 85% are in favor of a peaceful, unified multi-ethnic state? 

I've seen varying reports of what people actually want.
This talks of a recent poll that shows support for a two state solution has gone down from 59% to 24%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/israel-palestine-is-the-two-state-solution-the-answer-to-the-crisis

Which would suggest yes, most of them favour a multi-ethnic state.

Wow, that's one hell of an implication. To almost anyone else, it would suggest that they favour a single ethnic Palestinian state.

Another poll shows only 15% support ethnic cleansing of Israelis.  We were looking at the other 85% already.

Each side perceives itself as an exclusive victim (84% of Palestinians and 84% of Israeli Jews), while an overwhelming majority of Palestinians (90%) but only a smaller majority of Israeli Jews (63%) think this suffering grants them with a moral right to do anything they deem as necessary for survival. A vast majority among both groups (93%) see themselves as rightful owners of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river. While a third of Israeli Jews are willing to accept some ownership right of the Palestinians, only 7% of Palestinians are willing to accept such idea about the Jews.

That sounds fair to me considering how little the Palestinians currently have and the Israelis are steadily day by day taking ever more.

Yuou agree that they have a moral right to do anything they deem as necessary for survival?

No. That would be daft. I expect even within those who agreed with this they have limits and don't mean literally anything is OK.

I'm referring to the 7% figure.
Palestine being asked to give more up to Israel....yeah. I get where that would strike them as unreasonable.

As I mentioned, this poll comes from 2022. The Gallup poll you poted shows that a drop in Palestinian support from 59% to 24%. Presumably that 35% loss is now split in some way between 1 state, apartheid and explusion. You have mistakenly (because you haven't bothered clicking through the links in the articles) been mixing different polls.

Don't be a cunt. Yes I did.

[Sheilbh]

Otherwise, I am happy to see Cameron's appointment has been a complete success in meeting its objectives: making the whole press spin around it for two days instead of what an abject failures the Tories are.

Yes although no PM since Thatcher has gone into the Lords, reportedly Blair advised Cameron against it as if you're in Parliament you have to report your earnings. So I think the appointment aside (it is, after all, just a more underwhelming version of Peter Mandelson's return), it's good that Cameron has gone into the Lords (and I quite like that May had stayed as an MP).

I also think it's generally good for ex-PMs/senior cabinet ministers to hang around and be willing to serve in the cabinets of other leaders. Especially as they've become younger - Blair, Cameron, Sunak etc all PM in their 40s for example. Even if they're very successful they'll be out in their fifties which leaves a long time to "find a role".

Edit: Also that's one or two days of positive coverage. I suspect we'll hear more around Greensill, how he's earned his money and China - not least from the Tory backbenchers who are very hawkish on China which Sunak isn't.

[Gups]

No. That would be daft. I expect even within those who agreed with this they have limits and don't mean literally anything is OK.

I'm referring to the 7% figure.
Palestine being asked to give more up to Israel....yeah. I get where that would strike them as unreasonable.

As I mentioned, this poll comes from 2022. The Gallup poll you poted shows that a drop in Palestinian support from 59% to 24%. Presumably that 35% loss is now split in some way between 1 state, apartheid and explusion. You have mistakenly (because you haven't bothered clicking through the links in the articles) been mixing different polls.

Don't be a cunt. Yes I did.

1. Your comprehension skills are abysmal. Only 7% of Palestinians were willing to accept that Jews could own any land between the Mediterranean and Jordan (I have to say I'm shocked that the equivalent figure for Israeli Jews is only 33% and this was before the October 7 outrages).

2. In that case you were deliberately mirepresenting. I had hoped that wasn't the case.

[Tamas]

Palestinians are saying Palestine should be free and they're specifically saying they don't mean others should be unfree, that they want equal rights, etc...
Opponents of Palestinian freedom are going "OMG you want to kill all the Jews. Thats what you really mean.". These folk have had the most successful PR campaign in bending the ear of the west's leaders and terrifying Jewish people (with the help of stupid Palestinians and their supporters).

With the N word you've a situation where the actual people themselves are saying "That's bad. Don't say that" and a outside group are going "But we want to".
With from the river to the sea you've the group who it actually refers to going "We want to say this. It means we want freedom.", most of them having zero killing connected to it, and others going "But its bad. Don't say that".

As said when it comes to western supporters of Palestine I'd say the err on the side of caution and not to say it. No matter how innocuous the phrase actually is, it has come to really cause worry amongst Jews and whip the right into a frenzy.
But when Palestinians say it about themselves... Who am I to judge?

But that's just the thing, they are NOT saying that about themselves. From the Jordan river to the sea, that's (with the exception of the West Bank) Israel. They are saying it about the country of Israel.

[Sheilbh]

Also, fundamentally it's just such a little thing.

It is interpreted by many Jews as annihilationist about Israel and its inhabitants. It has been used in that way in the past by the PLO in the 60s, by Hamas, by Islamic Jihad etc. Again I just don't think we apply the standard to other speech that how the impacted minority experiences it is not relevant, how it's been used historically doesn't matter - all that matters is what might be in the heart of someone who's saying it.

It is just such a small thing to not chant it.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

For many years us and everyone else have been rightly calling out how it is a BS excuse that alt-right types would be making all kinds of racist or homophobic slurs "for the lolz". But for the "lets replace Israel with Palestine" chant, it's ok to say "that's not how we mean it"? Bloody hell that's the same excuse I have heard from people using the N word, especially when doing so in Hungarian "well that's how they were always called"

Remember that the (far) left has a history of supporting the worst of the worst, and generally never admitting they were wrong to do so. After all, if utopia is the destination, any and all means to reach it are allowed.
They're closer to the religious nutters like Hamas or the bible-trumpers than they like to admit.

[The Brain]

Also, fundamentally it's just such a little thing.

It is interpreted by many Jews as annihilationist about Israel and its inhabitants. It has been used in that way in the past by the PLO in the 60s, by Hamas, by Islamic Jihad etc. Again I just don't think we apply the standard to other speech that how the impacted minority experiences it is not relevant, how it's been used historically doesn't matter - all that matters is what might be in the heart of someone who's saying it.

It is just such a small thing to not chant it.

It's not a small thing if you mean it.