Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[The Larch]

As I keep saying if you went by TV "documentaries" English history went along the lines of  Henry VIII - Churchill - Diana, and nothing else of importance happened.

No Elizabeth I even?

[Agelastus]

The Glorious Revolution is the preserve of history geeks nowadays, even those gratifying victories against Louis XIV are largely forgotten (you would think that the nationalist nutters would be all over those).

Strangely enough the one time this period was covered in School in any way was when I was 12 or 13 - I still remember how my History teacher of the time told us to remember the correct order

West B.R.O.M.

B - Blenheim
R - Ramillies
O - Oudenarde
M - Malplaquet

He is also the teacher who made use of a similar mnemonic to this -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_verses_of_monarchs_in_England

Although his version went (among other minor differences)

"Mary, Bessie, James the vain," at line 7.

It also did not bother with (or was not repeated often enough with for me to remember) the lines concerning the twentieth century monarchs.

[Sheilbh]

As I keep saying if you went by TV "documentaries" English history went along the lines of  Henry VIII - Churchill - Diana, and nothing else of importance happened.

That's nonsense

Right now on BBC iPlayer in the history section looking at the featured UK/British history docs there's:
My Family, Partition and Me: India 1947; Black Power: A British Story of Resistance; Thatcher: A Very British Revolution; Stonehenge: The Lost Circle Revealed; My Family, The Holocaust and Me; Blitz Spirit with Lucy Worsley; A House Through Time (this actually looks really interesting - David Olusoga working through the owners and occupiers of a house in Bristol from 18th century to the Blitz).

There's also series 16 of Who Do You Think You Are?.

Plus other stuff like the historical crime section with three different takes Jack the Ripper; A Very British Murder with Lucy Worsley; Dark Son: The Hunt For a Serial Killer; Murder in Soho: Who Killed Freddy Mills? plus a documentary about the death penalty in the UK.

There's stuff on the Royals (lots of Lucy Worsley again looking at the secrets of the Royal Palaces and the biggest Royal fibs), Princess Margaret, Victoria and Albert's royal wedding, plus Anne Boleyn.

There's also a sections on Ancient History (Treasures of the Anglo Saxons, A History of Ancient Britain, Ireland's Treasures Uncovered, The Story of Wales with Huw Edwards and Michael Wood's Story of England) and Remembering the World Wars (only UK-centric docs on the Somme, SAS and Battle of Britain - the rest are things like the Rise of the Nazis and Tunes for Tyrants: Music and Power with Suzy Klein, which I'll be investigating later).

Now we might not watch them - and the BBC is a public service broadcaster so this may not necessarily be what people want (though the Story of Wales and England follow Neil Clark's Story of Scotland so I think that's been popular and there's clearly boundless demand for Lucy Worsley documentaries ), but I think it's wrong to say it's just Henry VII - Churchill - Diana. That may just be what we watch or notice because it reinforces our impression that it's all that's covered.

But the key thing I'd note is that most of those are not necessarily about "great men" - I think people are really interested in how people lived in the past/what the world was like. Even with war documentaries on the Somme or Battle of Britain I imagine the focus will be on the service personnel not the generals. That's part of what I mean by social history.

Edit: And to be clear - I like Lucy Worsley, I'm not having a pop at her

[celedhring]

Art is maybe the only redeeming feature of this period for Spain (Velázquez!), and regionally it's very important for Catalonia as well because of their failed revolt during the 30 years war, that has become a seminal event in recent times.

Not really. One of the weirdest things is how the Remences revolt is not a big part of Catalan nationalism. You'd guess they'd be all over it, since it's the only time when Catalonia was briefly independent. They prefer to latch on the war of Spanish Succession or the Spanish Civil War, even though nothing of those were about independence (although they try to frame them that way).

[Richard Hakluyt]

The David Olusoga doc is well worth watching. He did houses in Liverpool and Newcastle in previous series; I saw some of the Liverpool episodes but missed the Newcastle ones.

The viewing figures for these shows are quite impressive 2-4m; if I had been asked to guess I would have said 1m.

[Sheilbh]

The David Olusoga doc is well worth watching. He did houses in Liverpool and Newcastle in previous series; I saw some of the Liverpool episodes but missed the Newcastle ones.

The viewing figures for these shows are quite impressive 2-4m; if I had been asked to guess I would have said 1m.

Will do - I remember there being a really good series a while ago of history of a single street. Plus with series 16 of Wh Do You Think You Are?, social history may be the wrong phrase but I think many people are really interested in what life was like for people/individual stories. It's maybe just more possible in the last 200 years because there's more documents and evidence about that through censuses, photos, more widespread literacy etc.

I imagine there would be demand for it about, say, Tudor London if there was a way of doing it that didn't involve lots of guess work and ridiculous re-enactments

[Sheilbh]

I've mentioned before a really interesting long read on The Guardian about the plans for royal deaths (Prince Philip's is "Operation Forth Bridge").

We're seeing this one roll out now. BBC logos changed to black, they interrupted broadcasting to announce the death followed by the national anthem and normal broadcasting has been stopped on the BBC and ITV (who've also stopped all adverts for the day). Half-mast flags everywhere and the government essentially goes into purdah as before an election. With the exception of public health communications about covid all public statements and public facing communications by government need to be cleared by Number 10, but also the civil service. That lasts until the funeral I think. Also guidelines to all ministers on making sure they're in dark clothes etc if they're doing anything public facing - BBC will have sent the same to their hosts.

Many other commercial TV stations have also pulled their advertising and are displaying this instead (from Dave):


No lying in state or state funeral, in line with his wishes. So it'll be a funeral at St George's Chapel in Windsor Castle and "regretfully" the public have been asked to stay away because of covid restrictions.

Watching all this be announced or just happen - you can't help but think it's a bit of a dress rehearsal for the Queen's death (though she still seems pretty healthy for a 94 year old)

[Josquius]

So nothing on TV except endless breaking news about the death?

I do worry the queen isn't going to be far behind. And is it really the right time for King Charles? (I know he doesn't want to be called that, but come on, pfff)

[The Larch]

Art is maybe the only redeeming feature of this period for Spain (Velázquez!), and regionally it's very important for Catalonia as well because of their failed revolt during the 30 years war, that has become a seminal event in recent times.

Not really. One of the weirdest things is how the Remences revolt is not a big part of Catalan nationalism. You'd guess they'd be all over it, since it's the only time when Catalonia was briefly independent. They prefer to latch on the war of Spanish Succession or the Spanish Civil War, even though nothing of those were about independence (although they try to frame them that way).

I might have mixed up the Catalonian revolts.  Isn't "Els Segadors" inspired in the 1640 war?

[Sheilbh]

So nothing on TV except endless breaking news about the death?

I think on BBC and ITV - Channel 4 is proceeding as normal. Other commercial channels are proceeding as normal just with the banner to switch to BBC and no adverts.

Football matches and the Grand National this weekend won't be cancelled. Apparently that is normal after a senior royal death but not this time (I suspect covid is part of that - people won't be going to see the body lying in state).

I do worry the queen isn't going to be far behind. And is it really the right time for King Charles? (I know he doesn't want to be called that, but come on, pfff)

I think she'll  be a few years yet. Her mum lasted a long time and the Queen seems to be in pretty good health (unlike Philip who was in hospital a few weeks ago and has clearly been unwell for a while). But I think that will provoke a national meltdown for a few days when it happens.

And as someone on Twittter put it I imagine Daily Mail columnists are currently preparing both their "why Meghan Markle's presence at the funeral is an insult, designed to overshadow a somber occasion and their "why Meghan Markle's absence from the funeral, is an insult, designed to overshadow a somber occasion" pieces.

Edit: Also weirdly fascinated by the way radio stations are dealing. The BBC ones all cut to the news for a while but some have now moved back to music:

Scott Bryan
@scottygb
Some BBC radio stations have ended a simulcast and are starting to play music again.

BBC Radio 1 / 1Xtra / Radio 1 Dance are currently playing instrumentals, with reports from Newsbeat.

Radio 1 are currently playing an instrumental Adele track.

The commercial stations like Capital have adjusted their playlists to be mor mournful:

[celedhring]

Art is maybe the only redeeming feature of this period for Spain (Velázquez!), and regionally it's very important for Catalonia as well because of their failed revolt during the 30 years war, that has become a seminal event in recent times.

Not really. One of the weirdest things is how the Remences revolt is not a big part of Catalan nationalism. You'd guess they'd be all over it, since it's the only time when Catalonia was briefly independent. They prefer to latch on the war of Spanish Succession or the Spanish Civil War, even though nothing of those were about independence (although they try to frame them that way).

I might have mixed up the Catalonian revolts.  Isn't "Els Segadors" inspired in the 1640 war?

Yeah. But outside of that they don't feature very much in the nationalist pantheon (and let's not forget that Pujol wanted a different anthem). Pau Claris - the head of the Generalitat in 1640 - is the only to actually preside over an independent country, yet he doesn't enjoy the cult that the likes of Casanovas, Macià, Companys - and I presume Puigdemont in a few years  - have.

I always tease my pro-indy friends saying that they don't celebrate Claris because he was the only one that actually (if briefly) succeeded.

Now, what happened is that the Reapers War eventually became a bit of a revolutionary symbol, so it was de-emphasized by the nationalist establishment in the first part of the XXth century. In fact CUP are the only ones that you see regularly invoking the heritage of 1640 today.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting. Scots Nats like the Declaration of Arbroath and, obviously, the Battle of Bannockburn (which is the subject of both Flower of Scotland and Scots Wha Hae) and are very opportunistic -  the SNP leafletted at cinemas when Braveheart was playing.

Mary, Queen of Scots is broadly avoided - while obviously she was executed by Liz her reign was m e s s y in lots of ways.

But that's kind of it. After Robert the Bruce and the fight against Edward II they kind of ignore the subsequent few hundred years as an independent kingdom. Perhaps just because it was particularly chaotic and full of regicide.

[celedhring]

There's also the fact that Claris declared independence just to accept annexation by France one year later. Not too flattering, but it's not like people like Casanovas or Companys were more successful - or even wanted independence to begin with...

Ultimately, we are talking about a peasant revolt that's symbolized with people raising their sickles. Now imagine you're a nationalist burgeois in the 1920s, when Barcelona is going up in flames every other week due to socialist/anarchist unrest. that's *not* a moment in history you want to highlight.

[Valmy]

The 17th and 18th century just didn't happen apart from a little bit of agricultural revolution and that fire in London.
Thinking back to what I learned in school it always amazed me that the textbook continued onto these people all called "Stuart" who were just never to be mentioned in favour of rehashing the Tudors ad infinitum.

I have often marvelled about how obsessed culture is with the Tudors. I mean there are cool and all but the Plantagenets and the Stuarts are just as cool but one would think we went right from the Tudors to the Windsors.

[Valmy]

But that's kind of it. After Robert the Bruce and the fight against Edward II they kind of ignore the subsequent few hundred years as an independent kingdom. Perhaps just because it was particularly chaotic and full of regicide.

And if you go before pre-Margaret that won't do because England and Scotland were largely friendly prior to that.