Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[garbon]

Wrong thread.

No I meant Grenfell

Oh. Haha.

[Sheilbh]

Saw some analysis by academics (pre-covid) of the 37th British Social Attitudes Survey (run annually since 1983).

One point I thought was quite interesting was about migration. A majority wants the system for EU migrants to be the same as for non-EU migrants and those numbers don't really change even when people are told this means restrictions on British people moving to the EU. Also a narrow majority in favour of increasing free movement with increase access to other markets.

I think this was a driver in the 25-33% of BAME voters who voted Leave and is part of the lack of feeling a "European" identity before the referendum (there is now a strong European identity for a minority of Brits). The whole idea of why it should be easier for someone from a European country to move to the UK than someone from anywhere else in the world was an issue in the campaign, especially when somewhere else in the world had family members who couldn't get a visa.

[Valmy]

Well the obvious answer to that question was because it gave increased opportunities in return. That's why.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The direct beneficiaries of freedom of movement; be they Europeans living in the UK or Brits living in Europe; did not get to vote in the referendum though. That would be about 4m people 

[Sheilbh]

Well the obvious answer to that question was because it gave increased opportunities in return. That's why.

Yeah but people are fine with not having that because relatively few Brits take advantage of it (there's about as many Brits in other EU states as there are in Australia) because of how horrendous and shameful our language skills are as a nation. And there was no common feeling of "we are all European" like we are all American, or Canadian.

So it just seemed a bit discriminatory/fortress Europe, especially in some minority communities given other things like the "Brussels so white" issue or how mainstream hijab bans are in other bits of Europe while in the UK that policy is too far-right for Nigel Farage

[Sheilbh]

The direct beneficiaries of freedom of movement; be they Europeans living in the UK or Brits living in Europe; did not get to vote in the referendum though. That would be about 4m people 

Yeah - and there is that quirk that it was basically decided that the people who vote in the referendum = people who vote in a general election. So it doesn't include the Europeans who live in the UK, but does include Commonwealth citizens with a right to remain. Brits who lived in Europe could vote if they could in a general election.

But I think we are unusually territorial rather citizenship based on voting rights. So I know a lot of European countries like France, Italy and Turkey and others have specific MPs for nationals living overseas. There estimated to be around 5.5 to 6 million Brits who live overseas, they can vote by mail but they lose the right to vote after, I think, 10 years (have a friend who couldn't vote in 2019) and need to move back to the UK to regain it.

While Ireland's almost the opposite - from what I understand I could vote in general elections and referendums in Ireland by virtue of citizenship despite never having lived in Ireland. They make you travel to Ireland to vote (hence all of the planes full of young Irish people going home to free the gays and legalise abortion) but I think there's a proposal to change that to allow remote voting in the future. But it is weird, in London you'll fairly regularly see queues of French or Italians or Indians outside the Embassy to vote and we have no equivalent for Brits overseas.

[Valmy]

Ok that is an idiotic and shortsighted way of looking at it and obviously 66%-75% of BAME realized this and voted remain. So what? Am I supposed to be shocked? I live in the USA people vote against their own interests for stupid reasons all the time.

[The Larch]

Well the obvious answer to that question was because it gave increased opportunities in return. That's why.

Yeah but people are fine with not having that because relatively few Brits take advantage of it (there's about as many Brits in other EU states as there are in Australia) because of how horrendous and shameful our language skills are as a nation. And there was no common feeling of "we are all European" like we are all American, or Canadian.

Yet for instance plenty of retirees over here voted Leave while also planning to keep living here and using our healthcare system, and couldn't fathom why that arrangement could change once the UK left the EU.

[Josquius]

Well the obvious answer to that question was because it gave increased opportunities in return. That's why.

Yeah but people are fine with not having that because relatively few Brits take advantage of it (there's about as many Brits in other EU states as there are in Australia) because of how horrendous and shameful our language skills are as a nation. And there was no common feeling of "we are all European" like we are all American, or Canadian.

Yet for instance plenty of retirees over here voted Leave while also planning to keep living here and using our healthcare system, and couldn't fathom why that arrangement could change once the UK left the EU.

COS SPAIN NEEEDS OUR MONEY*

*despite the fact I'm not paying any taxes and spend most of my money in British-owned businesses.

[Sheilbh]

Yet for instance plenty of retirees over here voted Leave while also planning to keep living here and using our healthcare system, and couldn't fathom why that arrangement could change once the UK left the EU.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying it's interesting that actually after Brexit the issue seem to want to fix is fairness - treating EU and non-EU alike, including an acceptance that it'll make things more difficult for Brits.

[The Larch]

Yet for instance plenty of retirees over here voted Leave while also planning to keep living here and using our healthcare system, and couldn't fathom why that arrangement could change once the UK left the EU.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying it's interesting that actually after Brexit the issue seem to want to fix is fairness - treating EU and non-EU alike, including an acceptance that it'll make things more difficult for Brits.

What I meant is that even for those Brits taking advantage of intra-EU movement there was a level of disconnect and ignorance about where their privileges came from, not knowing that it was because of the UK's belonging to the EU.

[Sheilbh]

What I meant is that even for those Brits taking advantage of intra-EU movement there was a level of disconnect and ignorance about where their privileges came from, not knowing that it was because of the UK's belonging to the EU.

That is very fair and I feel for Spain and Australia. As Trump would say, we're not sending our best people 

(Although having said that my nephew and his girlfriend and kid have just moved to Spain - don't think they have any Spanish, but Spanish heritage - and I'm sure they'll be great )

[Richard Hakluyt]

There are oceans of ignorance concerning all such matters; which is why people should not be asked difficult questions via a referendum.

[Josquius]

Yet for instance plenty of retirees over here voted Leave while also planning to keep living here and using our healthcare system, and couldn't fathom why that arrangement could change once the UK left the EU.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying it's interesting that actually after Brexit the issue seem to want to fix is fairness - treating EU and non-EU alike, including an acceptance that it'll make things more difficult for Brits.

I definitely saw some trying this angle pre referendum tbh. It really was the key avenue of attack with minorities, presenting it that the EU people getting special rights somehow was taking something away from others.
That we don't live in a zero sum world was the key thing in making sure most did stay on-side and voted remain.

[Sheilbh]

There are oceans of ignorance concerning all such matters; which is why people should not be asked difficult questions via a referendum.

I'm not sure. Like I think it's complicated and difficult, in much the same way that untangling the union will be complicated and difficult.

But I think there is a case that actually being in the EU or the UK relies on the consent of the people (eveon though this is only formally acknowledged in relation to Northern Ireland). It seems like something where that consent needs to be checked every now and then, especially if the situation changes. I think there's an obligation on politicians and others to explain these issues so people can make informed decisions, which didn't happen (and hadn't happened for many years). But I think that was the issue not asking the question. And if people withdraw their consent to a layer of government governing them, then that's fine and it needs to happen.

I certainly don't think it's worse than, say, a referendum on the European Constitution or the Lisbon Treaty. But I think there should have been a two stage process of establishing the principle of consent by the people, then politicians work to develop options and return to the people rather than going through Parliament and elections (even if that's how our system is meant to work).