Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Rutherglen and Hamilton West - has gone SNP. SNP vote up from from 18,800 to about 24,000.

Tories and Labour down.

Edit: But apparently SNP vote did less well than projected by the exit poll.

[Agelastus]

Rutherglen and Hamilton West - has gone SNP. SNP vote up from from 18,800 to about 24,000.

Tories and Labour down.

I take comfort from the fact that the swing is only half the exit poll's prediction.

I do not take comfort from noting that it appears that the SNP has won due to a higher turnout (Labour's vote was only down 500.)

I am becoming more afraid that the SNP are going to sweep Scotland.

[FunkMonk]

Very ignorant of Brit politics but is what is happening right now the equivalent of the ending of The Godfather? A complete massacre?

[Agelastus]

Very ignorant of Brit politics but is what is happening right now the equivalent of the ending of The Godfather? A complete massacre?

If the Exit Poll is right concerning Labour's final totals...in terms of British politics, yes. You have to go back to the Great Depression and a Labour party divided between "Labour" in opposition and "National Labour" in government to get to lower figures.

Conversely, the same is true of the Unionist cause in Scotland if the Exit Poll is right; so two "Families" going down, not one.

[Sheilbh]

FFS. Ken Livingstone's turned up to say time is up for Jeremy Corbyn. And observing "the Jewish vote hasn't been very helpful"

[mongers]

FFS. Ken Livingstone's turned up to say time is up for Jeremy Corbyn. And observing "the Jewish vote hasn't been very helpful"

Maybe he's making a renewed play for party leadership?

[Sheilbh]

Very ignorant of Brit politics but is what is happening right now the equivalent of the ending of The Godfather? A complete massacre?

If the Exit Poll is right concerning Labour's final totals...in terms of British politics, yes. You have to go back to the Great Depression and a Labour party divided between "Labour" in opposition and "National Labour" in government to get to lower figures.

Conversely, the same is true of the Unionist cause in Scotland if the Exit Poll is right; so two "Families" going down, not one.

Agree. But the two are linked the Tories did far better in terms of their seats in 1983, but Labour held on to over two hundred seats.

The reason: Scotland. This is the challenge for Labour - how do they win an election again without Scotland - and it means the Tories don't need to do as well for them to be devastated.

[FunkMonk]

How much of Labour's drubbing due to its Brexit wishy-washiness and how much due to Corbyn being Corbyn? This has to be the end of him, for sure?

[Berkut]

Were  the anti-semitism charges just poltical bullshit, or is there a real there there?

[mongers]

How much of Labour's drubbing due to its Brexit wishy-washiness and how much due to Corbyn being Corbyn? This has to be the end of him, for sure?

Not solely his fault, Jo Swinson the lib dem leader deserves some blame for a high-handed approach to co-operating with other parties to help elect remain/ anti-hard brexit MPs.

[Sheilbh]

The Labour leadership's line is this was a Brexit election which meant people decided to ignore our widely popular set of policies. That's also the left outriders' position.

The view from many Labour candidates and campaigners is summed up by Phil Wilson MP in Sedgefield (North-Eastern mining constituency of Blair back in the day): "For @UKLabour  leadership to blame Brexit for the result is mendacious nonsense. Jeremy Corbyn's leadership was a bigger problem. To say otherwise is delusional. The Party's leadership went down like a lead balloon on the doorstep. Labour's leadership needs to take responsibility."

Answering that question is the first skirmishes of the latest round of Labour civil war.

[Sheilbh]

Were  the anti-semitism charges just poltical bullshit, or is there a real there there?

In my view there's real there there.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/12/british-jews-are-worried-jeremy-corbyn-and-labour-party/603259/

Edit: And the wider point is there's an institutional issue here - using the old definition of institutional racism. Jews within the Labour Party felt victimised and discriminated against and there wasn't an appropriate response either through real prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness or whatever else. So even if Labour isn't anti-semitic, the reality is Jewish Labour Party are experiencing anti-semitism which, in my view matters just as much. And I think if it were any other minority group (except for Muslims - see the Tory Party) then there would have been far less tolerance of this.

Not solely his fault, Jo Swinson the lib dem leader deserves some blame for a high-handed approach to co-operating with other parties to help elect remain/ anti-hard brexit MPs.

I disagree. I think her hints towards a remain coalition hurt the Lib Dems. They needed the votes of Tory remainers and should have kept a very clear line of "we won't beack Corbyn" because it allows those Tory remainers to vote Lib Dem without worrying they're putting Corbyn in by the backdoor.

[Agelastus]

Were  the anti-semitism charges just poltical bullshit, or is there a real there there?

To be honest, while the charges have been good for the party I support I've never believed them - I've always considered it to be a case of conflating criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews.

And yet I may have been wrong - see the statement from Ken Livingston quoted by Sheilbh above plus the dossier released only a few days ago.

I certainly still think it's been overblown.

[Richard Hakluyt]

That is the thing about the Labour party; they would far rather have a civil war with each other than defeat the Tories and set up a decent social democratic state. Which is why i have only ever voted for them once despite being a lifelong left of centre voter.

[Sheilbh]

To be honest, while the charges have been good for the party I support I've never believed them - I've always considered it to be a case of conflating criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews.

And yet I may have been wrong - see the statement from Ken Livingston quoted by Sheilbh above plus the dossier released only a few days ago.

I certainly still think it's been overblown.

I've been - when I was last trying to fight the fight for the soft left before 2017 - in Labour party events and seen a man who was accused of anti-semitism, suspended and then re-admitted (he's personal friends with Jeremy Corbyn - or at least so he claims) had some Jewish members very upset with his regular harangues about "Zionist" control of the media and their smear campaign.

They didn't feel he just meant Zionists, and I agree.