Hillary vs Bernie

[Capetan Mihali]

You guys lay off Mihali.  If he decides not to vote next November, respect his decision.  Not voting is a bold political statement in itself.

Well, I don't like to miss an Election Day, it's the only time of the year you get inside an elementary school gym without a lot of hassle from the cops.  So I guess my write-in/defaced/Working Families Party ballot will have to be bold enough this year.

[Monoriu]

You guys lay off Mihali.  If he decides not to vote next November, respect his decision.  Not voting is a bold political statement in itself.

Hear! Hear!

[Capetan Mihali]

As I said in the other thread, one of the big problems lefties have is prioritizing their own moral comfort over the welfare of the system as a whole.  Have to call Trump "Mr. President"?  Well, at least I didn't violate my principles, I can feel good about myself, Hillary had to earn my vote. 

Income inequality's the same or worse as it was when Hillary took office?  We're still entangled in senseless foreign conflicts?  Still pouring billions into Israel while they "settle" the West Bank?  Well, at least I didn't vote my conscience!

EDIT:  In essence, you have it precisely backwards. 

Your moral comfort comes from saying "Well, at least I did the most darned reasonable thing, under the circumstances, win or lose.  Did my part to keep the system's welfare up."  While totally disregarding the fact that "the circumstances" are not given by God, but just political structures that *we* are responsible for maintaining or abolishing.  The system's welfare is just fine, but the system hasn't ensured the welfare of this country. 

I guess it's more comfortable to accept the status quo as a permanent situation than to have to look at the damage it's doing and fight to change it.

[garbon]

"Evil" was in quotes to represent its connection to the phrase "the better of two evils," which doesn't really mean two actually evil things are being compared, like "better the devil you know."

Why should I vote for a candidate I don't want to be President?  Why is it my responsibility to use my vote to help the Democratic Party candidate win when they don't put forward a candidate I support? 

This kind of "well if you don't like you can lump it, pick the least shittiest for 'our side' or GTFO" thinking seems much less in line with the duties of disposing of my sacred ballot, for which so much blood was shed, as CdM noted.

And we're not on the same side politically, a fundamental point that's much broader than just the two of us, and one that's been building and building for various reasons.  My political priorities are entirely different than yours, even though we share certain policy preferences, and the Democratic Party is just not a big enough tent for me with Hillary Clinton as the candidate.

Well I'm not even always a democrat, so certainly I was not trying to suggest we have the same political aims.

I do think though, correct me if I'm wrong, Hillary can actually check off more liberal leftist aims that you might support than Trump (or any other Republican) ever will. That would be why you would then vote for a candidate that you dislike because at least that candidate comes closer to the things you like and less likely to expand on things that you consider an anathema.

There's also, as DG sort of said, a bit about voting for the candidate who you think would be better for America and its citizens as a whole. Trump (and the current Republican crop) aren't really those people.

[derspiess]

I think Jill Stein would make a great alternative to Hillary in the general.  She's not owned by Wall Street, won't let Bibi dictate our foreign policy, and was a physician. 

I may send her a few bucks this summer.  I admire her moxie.

[Eddie Teach]

Clearly derspiess needs higher taxes.

[Valmy]

I guess it's more comfortable to accept the status quo as a permanent situation than to have to look at the damage it's doing and fight to change it.

You have to sell people on your ideas to change things. Constantly presenting obviously stupid ideas that are proven failures is not likely to sway me.

[garbon]

I think Jill Stein would make a great alternative to Hillary in the general.  She's not owned by Wall Street, won't let Bibi dictate our foreign policy, and was a physician. 

I may send her a few bucks this summer.  I admire her moxie.

I looked the other day at Stein's ideas and it reminded me why America is only a two party system. Chicken and egg problem but a third party really needs to not be batshit insane to garner support.

[Capetan Mihali]

Well I'm not even always a democrat, so certainly I was not trying to suggest we have the same political aims.

I do think though, correct me if I'm wrong, Hillary can actually check off more liberal leftist aims that you might support than Trump (or any other Republican) ever will. That would be why you would then vote for a candidate that you dislike because at least that candidate comes closer to the things you like and less likely to expand on things that you consider an anathema.

Hillary can check off more items on the liberal-left checklist, yes.  If she chooses to.  Some of her past checks on the checklist have been things I not only didn't/don't support, but oppose(d) passionately. 

And I'm voting for a candidate, not a checklist.  I find a number of things about Hillary Clinton's activities during and after the Bill Clinton presidency (even the governorship), during her tenure as Senator, and during and after her tenure as Secretary of State to have little faith in her integrity or compatibility with my political beliefs.

I'd find any number of things anathema about the polices of a Trump, let alone Cruz, presidency.  So I won't for either of them either.

There's also, as DG sort of said, a bit about voting for the candidate who you think would be better for America and its citizens as a whole. Trump (and the current Republican crop) aren't really those people.

I will vote for the candidate who I think would be better for America. Luckily, there's nothing about our system of government or even the physical voting location that constrains me to two choices.  So I'll vote for that candidate, but it won't be Hillary Clinton.

[Grinning_Colossus]

Jill Stein advocated a "Green New Deal", in which renewable energy jobs would be created to address climate change and environmental issues; the objective would be to employ "every American willing and able to work". Stein noted the successful economic effects of the 1930s' New Deal projects, and said she would fund the start-up costs of the plan with a 30% reduction in the U.S. military budget, returning US troops home, and increasing taxes on areas such as speculation in stock markets, offshore tax havens, and multimillion-dollar real estate. She says, based on the research of Phillip Harvey, Professor of Law & Economics at Rutgers University, that the multiplier economic effects of this Green New Deal would later recoup most of the start-up costs

I mean, that's exactly what I'd expect from a Green candidate.

[Capetan Mihali]

I guess it's more comfortable to accept the status quo as a permanent situation than to have to look at the damage it's doing and fight to change it.

You have to sell people on your ideas to change things. Constantly presenting obviously stupid ideas that are proven failures is not likely to sway me.

..... Okey-dokey.

[derspiess]

Clearly derspiess needs higher taxes.

She's promoting green jobs FFS.  What else can you ask for in a candidate?

[Valmy]

..... Okey-dokey.

Ok then. Lose and lecture people about their "comfort" then. Whatever.

[Capetan Mihali]

..... Okey-dokey.

Ok then. Lose and lecture people about their "comfort" then. Whatever.

For the record, *I* was the one who got lectured for my "comfort" by DGuller!   I just can't win with you guys.  But you all obviously need a way of discharging the bad conscience you unconsciously feel about playing your appointed role in propping up the status quo as it takes us over a cliff, so I don't mind.

[garbon]

I will vote for the candidate who I think would be better for America. Luckily, there's nothing about our system of government or even the physical voting location that constrains me to two choices.  So I'll vote for that candidate, but it won't be Hillary Clinton.

Yeah the problem though is in reality (in terms of who can actually win), you can pick any color you like as long as it is black or white. Sucks that is the case, but those are the breaks.