300 years ago today: Poltava

[Valmy]

Poltava was bad but nothing was so horrible for Eastern European history than the failure of the Grand Vizier to kill Peter during the Pruth campaign.  I hold that fucker personally responsible for the rise of Russia.

[saskganesh]

Poltava was bad but nothing was so horrible for Eastern European history than the failure of the Grand Vizier to kill Peter during the Pruth campaign.  I hold that fucker personally responsible for the rise of Russia.

didn't the Sultan execute that Vizier because of it?

[The Brain]

I'm glad that you are not a retard.

Russia doesn't have to fall, Peter has to fall. If Peter's regime was essentially the same as Russia itself then taking Moscow probably wouldn't have sufficed. My impression is that it was not and that taking Moscow could have forced Peter to peace or from the throne. Nothing about this was certain, marching on Moscow was a gamble. My impression is that it was not an unreasonable one. And as far as I'm aware it was the only positive measure by which Charles could force peace on Peter.

Perhaps. However, Peter's regime would only likely fall if Peter himself were eliminated in some way, by that point Moscow was not a major factor and it wouldn't be again until the Soviet era. As I said, taking St. Petersburg might have been a better idea, since that city was far more symbolic to Peter's regime than Moscow.

St Petersburg was immensely important to Peter. It was not immensely important to Russia. Meaning that losing it Peter would just withdraw to the interior and prepare for the next campaign (since he really really wanted it)and his regime wouldn't lose a lot of prestige to Russians (since it wasn't a big thing to them).

Also I am not an expert on St Petersburg but in 1708 it was five years old and essentially a fortified little swamp town and not exactly a major Russian center in any meaningful way comparable to Moscow. Saying that Moscow wasn't a major factor to Russia in 1708 seems a bit wrong IMHO.

[crazy canuck]

So basically the Swedes had trouble reading their maps and instead of hanging a left and heading on to Moscow, they missed the turn and kept heading south.

Glad to see the only damage they can now inflict on the world is make furniture that doesnt fit together very well.

[Habsburg]

Today 300 years ago valiant Swedes fought the hordes of the Great Enemy

I like the bolded part the best.

[Drakken]

 

However, since we are now in alt-his territory, did Sweden really had a chance to topple Russia out of the war if it had invaded Russia after Narva, the collapse of Denmark and the peace of Travendal, instead of turning westward and anally raping Martinus' ancestors in Poland to dethrone Augustus of Saxony?

Also, there at least a possible white peace for Sweden in 1707 when Peter was ready to restitute everything except Saint-Petersburg and the line of the Neva. But would it have been a real peace, or only a truce?

[Habsburg]

So basically the Swedes had trouble reading their maps and instead of hanging a left and heading on to Moscow, they missed the turn and kept heading south.

Glad to see the only damage they can now inflict on the world is make furniture that doesnt fit together very well.

IIRC, Charles and his Army were in the Ottoman Empire and were haeding North?

[crazy canuck]

So basically the Swedes had trouble reading their maps and instead of hanging a left and heading on to Moscow, they missed the turn and kept heading south.

Glad to see the only damage they can now inflict on the world is make furniture that doesnt fit together very well.

IIRC, Charles and his Army were in the Ottoman Empire and were haeding North?

To get there they had to head south and on the way missed that crucial left turn.

[Valmy]

So basically the Swedes had trouble reading their maps and instead of hanging a left and heading on to Moscow, they missed the turn and kept heading south.

Glad to see the only damage they can now inflict on the world is make furniture that doesnt fit together very well.

They thought they could get Ukrainian support.

[crazy canuck]

They thought they could get Ukrainian support.

There is a lot to be said about that but out of deference to BB and my own maternal line I will refrain from comment.

[Slargos]

However, since we are now in alt-his territory, did Sweden really had a chance to topple Russia out of the war if it had invaded Russia after Narva, the collapse of Denmark and the peace of Travendal, instead of turning westward and anally raping Martinus' ancestors in Poland to dethrone Augustus of Saxony?

Also, there at least a possible white peace for Sweden in 1707 when Peter was ready to restitute everything except Saint-Petersburg and the line of the Neva. But would it have been a real peace, or only a truce?

It would've been an arab-style "truce" wherein the next attack would've come the moment it was convenient for the perfidious Russians.

I'm not well-read enough to say whether this would've meant a need for peace against the Danes and Poles aswell, but I like that scenario regardless, since it gives Sweden a breather to rebuild finances and most importantly find allies against the next Russian attack.

Edit: Of course, I had to take a new look at the dates involved and I feel pretty embarrassed about my previous statement. I shall, however, leave it there as a testament to my poor memory.  Regardless, I still like the idea of a 1707 peace treaty.

[Jaron]

Hitler learned from the Swedes. You don't get any Uke support without first tossing the dogs some Jews to chew on. That is how Russians think.

[The Brain]

However, since we are now in alt-his territory, did Sweden really had a chance to topple Russia out of the war if it had invaded Russia after Narva, the collapse of Denmark and the peace of Travendal, instead of turning westward and anally raping Martinus' ancestors in Poland to dethrone Augustus of Saxony?

Also, there at least a possible white peace for Sweden in 1707 when Peter was ready to restitute everything except Saint-Petersburg and the line of the Neva. But would it have been a real peace, or only a truce?

Invading Russia in 1701 with Saxony still on the loose around Riga would have been dangerous. And AFAIK difficult. I suppose you would have had to march on Moscow meaning supply problems and not having the advantages of a reinforced army and prepared supply that existed in 1708. My guess is that it was not impossible, but also that improvising invasions of Russia with an unsecured flank isn't really healthy risktaking.

Regarding 1707, Russian access to the Baltic made Russia getting St Petersburg far from a white peace. Charles surrendering the entire Swedish strategic position in the Baltic would have been pretty weird at the height of his power after a great series of victories.

[Scipio]

Hitler learned from the Swedes. You don't get any Uke support without first tossing the dogs some Jews to chew on. That is how Russians think.

Ukrainians are not Russian.

[Drakken]

Hitler learned from the Swedes. You don't get any Uke support without first tossing the dogs some Jews to chew on. That is how Russians think.

Ukrainians are not Russian.

To the minds of the hitlerites, they are both subhumans.