300 years ago today: Poltava

[Josquius]

WTF were you thinking going to the Ukraine anyway? (I see the answer, just...WTF)
Thanks to that epic fail you gave the world Finland. (no wait...that was later....Oh well, you were on the road to there)

[Slargos]

WTF were you thinking going to the Ukraine anyway? (I see the answer, just...WTF)
Thanks to that epic fail you gave the world Finland.

- The field army wasn't going to be able to reach Moscow before the winter set in
- Morale was faltering
- Ammo and food was running out
- Turning back was not an option given that the entire countryside was plundered and ravaged by both the advancing Swedes but mainly the retreating Russians.

- Misinformation about the size of Masepa's available forces led Charles to believe that instead of a rag-tag force of a few thousand there would be about 40 000 soldiers available, doubling the size of his army.
- The general idea was that the only way to defeat Russia would be to take Moscow.

[Ed Anger]

The only thing worse then a Russian empire is a Swedish one.  We'd all be eating those rancid meat balls.

Delicious Swedish meatballs. Only one of 2 things they gave the world.

[The Brain]

Would anyone care to explain the logic of the Poltava campaign to me?  Something to do with Ottomans?

When I look at a map and ask myself the question what's the best route for Sweden to invade Russia Poltava is not the first answer that leaps to mind.

When Charles set out from Saxony in 1707 he had essentially 2 routes to choose from. He could either take a northern route through the Swedish provinces on the Baltic (where the Russians had made serious progress), and take out newly founded St Petersburg. Some advicers at the time and several historians since have considered this to have been the sensible, low-risk option. The other possibility was a direct thrust along the main road through Smolensk to Moscow.

The problem with the northern route was that

A) the provinces had been ravaged by years of war, and they were also Swedish. This made making them a battleground or base for a Russian campaign less attractive.

B) more importantly there was nothing in the area that would force Peter to make peace. Peter had suffered catastrophic defeat in that exact region once before (the Narva campaign of 1700) and he had continued the war. Meaning that Charles would still have had to invade Russia, which leads to C.

C) Using fairly desolate northwestern Russa as a way to Moscow made little sense, especially since Charles would have had lost time getting there and clearing out the Russians in the Swedish provinces.

The key to the issue is that nothing short of Moscow would force Peter to make peace. Then going by the direct route where there at least existed a highway made sense. Which leads us to the question: why Ukraine? I will try to explain.

In 1708 Charles advanced on Smolensk, planning to meet up with a second army led by Lewenhaupt coming from Riga with a huge supply train. For a number of reasons the two armies failed to make contact and seeing the desolation that Peter's scorched earth tactics had wreaked ahead of him Charles made the decision to make for the Ukraine for supply reasons. Eventually the second army did make it to Charles, but only 6,000 men and no supply train. They had lost it at the battle of Lesna. So on to the Ukraine it was. The plan was to winter there and make a push on Moscow from the south in the summer. The fact that Cossacks were in revolt against Peter also factored in, there had been diplomatic contacts between the Swedes and the rebels/freedom fighters for a while. Unfortunately Peter managed to quickly cripple the uprising and only some thousands of Cossacks joined Charles. At Christmas extreme cold hit (1708-09 was an extremely cold winter in all of Europe) and the Swedes suffered. In the spring Charles laid siege to Poltava. The exact reason for this is not known with certainty. Supposedly the siege wasn't pressed very hard leading some to guess that Charles used it to try to bring Peter to battle. If so Charles was certainly correct that a major field action was the best thing that could happen to the Swedes (as always before). On 17 June Charles was shot in the foot and over the next week he came close to death from fever. Whether he had learned of Charles's wound or not Peter then decided to close with the Swedes and make camp within striking distance of the siegeworks around Poltava. Charles decided on a surprise attack at dawn and the rest is history. Er, just like the previous parts.

Meh, fuck you Slarg.

[Syt]

The Swedes — their destiny is to be ruled by mad kings. Their king was insane, they changed him and took another, Bernadotte, who promptly went out of his mind — because no Swede who wasn't a madman would conclude alliances with Russia.

[Admiral Yi]

Watch out Slargos! The Faltermen are coming to get you!

[Slargos]

Meh, fuck you Slarg.

[Slargos]

Watch out Slargos! The Faltermen are coming to get you!

Fältarmén = Field army.

[Tonitrus]

The only thing worse then a Russian empire is a Swedish one.  We'd all be eating those rancid meat balls.

Delicious Swedish meatballs. Only one of 2 things they gave the world.

The other better be tall, HOTT blondes ladies.

[Ed Anger]

The only thing worse then a Russian empire is a Swedish one.  We'd all be eating those rancid meat balls.

Delicious Swedish meatballs. Only one of 2 things they gave the world.

The other better be tall, HOTT blondes ladies.

Yes. Duh.

[Neil]

Anyway, Swedes got what they deserved. And their King was a retard. KEKEKEKEKE.

You Russians always stick together.

[Ed Anger]

Anyway, Swedes got what they deserved. And their King was a retard. KEKEKEKEKE.

You Russians always stick together.

The polacks allied with the russians back then. Marti is dreaming of the glory days when his nation was sucking Peter's cock.

[Alatriste]

I don't know about you, but tonight I will read some books on the campaign and drink to the health of Peter the Great and of all the men dead at Poltava.

It's not that I hate Sweden, some of my best... furniture is Swedish, but without Poltava the modern, civilized Sweden we all know and love, the peaceful, neutral country of sexually liberated tall blondes, nudism, Swedish Gymnastics, civilized debate, generous welfare state, Paradox and Ikea, wouldn't have existed.

And the world was definitely a better place while Charles XII had no army to toy with... don't get me wrong, I fully understand Turkey couldn't be expected to house those so-called political refugees indefinitely, but Sweden has good reasons to rue the day Charles returned home. 

Incidentally, it's interesting to compare the comparatively slow Swedish invasion with the 'blitzkrieg style' French rush towards Moscow. I wonder if Napoleon hurried so much precisely because Charles XII didn't and the result was.. well, the result was Poltava!

[Neil]

Anyway, Swedes got what they deserved. And their King was a retard. KEKEKEKEKE.

You Russians always stick together.

The polacks allied with the russians back then. Marti is dreaming of the glory days when his nation was sucking Peter's cock.

The Polish people are extinct.  All that is left of them is a degenerate subspecies of Russian.

[Neil]

It's not that I hate Sweden, some of my best... furniture is Swedish, but without Poltava the modern, civilized Sweden we all know and love, the peaceful, neutral country of sexually liberated tall blondes, nudism, Swedish Gymnastics, civilized debate, generous welfare state, Paradox and Ikea, wouldn't have existed.

Of course it would have.  The overthrow of Sweden was inevitable.

That said, do we really love a Sweden that's built on moral cowardice?