Star Wars Discussion Thread contains spoilers (and may contain nuts)

[Hamilcar]

DUDE: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

[Admiral Yi]

"The motion picture event of a generation." 

Just throttle it down and let word of mouth work for fuck's sake.

[celedhring]

"The motion picture event of a generation." 

Just throttle it down and let word of mouth work for fuck's sake.

It's comfortably going to become the most watched film in the US since Titanic.

[Habbaku]

DUDE: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

Ugh.  Spilling that much ink defending a series of bad movies is almost as much a waste of time as reading the defense.

[The Minsky Moment]

1. The flashback scene was confusing but isn't one implication (possible?) that Rey was being trained at a very young age.  That would explain her quick force learning on the fly.

2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw.  The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting.  There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense.  Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed.  They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct.  The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person.  Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large.  An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.

[HVC]

I really enjoyed the film. Beside the fact that Rey was too good too fast what bugged me was that the shields were taken down so easily from what seemed like a random console.

[Berkut]

1. The flashback scene was confusing but isn't one implication (possible?) that Rey was being trained at a very young age.  That would explain her quick force learning on the fly.

Saw it again today, and I think you are right. I suspect Rey was at whatever Jedi training that Luke had setup and that Kylo Ren destroyed.

Watching it again, I don't think there can be too much doubt that she is Luke's daughter, and hence Ren's cousin.

2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw.  The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting.  There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense.  Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed.  They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct.  The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person.  Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large.  An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.

I love this kind of analysis, even when we all know it is likely we are reading much more into the entire thing that than the people who actually wrote it intended.

But I agree - the Jedi order are like Catholic priests - their very monasticy makes them almost incapable of actually shepherding the people. They are so far removed from normal people as to be alien. The dark side goes almost the opposite direction - so consumed by emotion that they become a farce, albeit a very dangerous one.

I think it would be cool to see a light side force user group arise that are NOT Jedi.

[Berkut]

I really enjoyed the film. Beside the fact that Rey was too good too fast

The more I think about this, the less it bothers me.

In fact, it is pretty easy to argue that she could have vastly more practical combat knowledge than Ren.

Except for the bit where apparently she knows how to pilot interstellar starships. That doesn't make much sense.

[Syt]

2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw.  The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting.  There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense.  Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed.  They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct.  The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person.  Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large.  An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.

That chimes with a video I watched the other day that pretty much repeats these points, but also adds that Palpatine is right, that the Jedi are afraid of losing their power - by Episode III the chancellor has wide reaching powers, but up to this point he has followed the democratic process. He has promised to resign when the war is over or Grievous is defeated. The Jedi nevertheless decide to remove him from office if he refuses. Mace Windu is told by Anakin (who he doesn't trust much) that Palpatine might be the Sith Lord. He then immediately rushes off to arrest the chancellor - to which Palpatine says (possibly legally correctly?) that it's treason. During the fight Mace Windu decides that arresting Palpatine won't work and that he's too dangerous to be left alive, echoing Palpatine's words about Dooku, and showing to Anakin that Jedi and Palpatine are not that different from one another.


At any rate, the theory that Snoke is Darth Plagueis: We know through Palpatine that Plagueis (ostensibly his teacher) could use midichlorians the Force to create life. What if he used that power to create Anakin as some sort of super Force user? He would choose a slave on a backwater planet outside the Republic, because it's unlikely the child will be discovered there by the Jedi. In the meantime, Plagueis wants to use Palpatine as puppet through which he can rule the Galaxy. Meanwhile, Palpatine finds his own apprentice in Darth Maul. Palpatine learns of the plan, kills his master Plagueis and puts his own plan for Galactic domination in motion. He takes on Dooku as new disciple, but already knows that he will be replaced by Anakin when he's lost his usefulness.

However, Plagueis was not dead. The attack from Sidious left him scarred, but his powers kept him alive or resurrected him. So basically he might be a lich now. When he wakes form his Odinsleep he starts forming the First Order. He realizes that Anakin had offspring who in turn had offspring. Luke can't be corrupted, and neither can his sister or Luke's daughter.He sees potential in Ben, and probably sees him as easy to corrupt. Maybe he appears to him as Vader? Kylo says in the movie show me *again* the power of the dark side, so he must have seen it before; though it may have been a vision, similar to the one Rey has when touching the lightsaber. Or maybe Ben Solo was jealous (of Rey? Because she learned her powers so quickly?). Anyways, he takes on Ben/Kylo as a student.

However, he remembers what Vader did: he was extremely powerful, and in the end sacrificed himself for his son. Which is why Plagueis doesn't give Kylo Ren his full training yet - he doesn't want him so powerful that he might be a threat if he has to choose between family and his master. Therefore Kylo Ren killing his father is a crucial proof that he doesn't have the same "flaw" that Vader had, and only then does Snoke/Plagueis agree to finish his training.



On Rey, there seems to be a theory that Lor San Tekka (Max von Sydow) was left with her as a guardian (during her vision we see a human hand holding her child arm), but that he left early to search for Luke's whereabouts. He's only just returned, but didn't make contact because he knew the First Order was on his heels. Another theory says that maybe Kylo Ren dropped her off there, because he couldn't bring himself to kill her (some seem to think the vision shows him saving her from a guy attacking her with a staff). But besides him flipping his shit when he hears that "a girl" helped the droid escape, he doesn't seem to recognize her in any way. I'm guessing that she was Luke's daughter and that her mother hid her on Jakku with a trustworthy person (but what became of that person?) to search for Luke after he sent them away. Regarding her Force powers I'm pretty sure she was at the Academy but forgot about it or (more likely) suppressed the traumatic memory (which comes back when she touches the familiar lightsaber). And it would be the most logical explanation for her being able to use the Force.

[Tonitrus]

(during her vision we see a human hand holding her child arm)

I went it saw it again with family, I could have sworn I saw something in that flashback that made me think the arm holding her was that alien dude on Jakku who was handing out the portions.  But I'd need to see it again in slo-mo to be sure.

[Hamilcar]

2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw.  The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting.  There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense.  Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed.  They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct.  The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person.  Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large.  An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.

That chimes with a video I watched the other day that pretty much repeats these points, but also adds that Palpatine is right, that the Jedi are afraid of losing their power - by Episode III the chancellor has wide reaching powers, but up to this point he has followed the democratic process. He has promised to resign when the war is over or Grievous is defeated. The Jedi nevertheless decide to remove him from office if he refuses. Mace Windu is told by Anakin (who he doesn't trust much) that Palpatine might be the Sith Lord. He then immediately rushes off to arrest the chancellor - to which Palpatine says (possibly legally correctly?) that it's treason. During the fight Mace Windu decides that arresting Palpatine won't work and that he's too dangerous to be left alive, echoing Palpatine's words about Dooku, and showing to Anakin that Jedi and Palpatine are not that different from one another.

In many ways, the Republic and the Jedi act like Vader and the Empire in the OT. The whole battle on Geonosis is a reversal of the battle on Hoth. Like the Rebels, the separatists fight of the Stormtroopers to try and get away. In Ep III, Padme even spells it out directly by asking Anaking basically "are we the bad guys?!"

While the separatists were organized by Sidious/Dooku/Grievous, they weren't the bad guys, just dupes.

[Hamilcar]

Also, Qui-gon ~= Qigong, the "living force", transcending duality and ascension to balance & immortality.

[MadImmortalMan]

While the separatists were organized by Sidious/Dooku/Grievous, they weren't the bad guys, just dupes.

Clearly. Otherwise they would have won the war very early on.

[lustindarkness]

This movie in IMAX 3D is The Awesome. Was great to watch it a second time too, I really like this movie.




BTW, the imax screen is bigger than my house. LOL

[Tonitrus]

I watched it the second time on an IMAX 3D.  It just confirmed to me that 3D is teh stupid.