Star Wars Discussion Thread contains spoilers (and may contain nuts)

[celedhring]

Luke actually failed his way to success, only wheeled out like an idiot savant for certain set pieces where his force powers were required and carefully kept alive by the more competent around him. First he got beat up by the Tuskan raiders, saved by Obi, saved again by Obi at the cantina from those two ruffians, saved by Han Solo at the trench run in the end, saved by Han on Hoth, etc, etc, etc. Even in the end Luke utterly fails to actually defeat the Emperor, only saved by Vader.

Pudding: overegged.  Luke diced up that Walker pretty nicely.
[/quote]

Ep V is very well done in that regard though. Luke starts as billy big bollocks and then eats a nice big humble pie as the film progresses. First when Yoda shows him that he's still shit at that Force lark, and then when Vader emasculates him at Cloud City.

[Malthus]

Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be  ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.

Well, Luke needed a bit more training before he started doing Force tricks. She certainly was a Mary Sue. I liked her character, mind. I expect she will be de-Mary Sued in Ep VIII, like it happened to Luke in Ep V

She's shown learning force tricks by imitating what Han Solo Jr. tries doing to her.

[Barrister]

From Wikipedia (which for a pop culture meme like Mary Sue, seems as authoritative as any:

Origin and development of the meaning[edit]
The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters.[citation needed] By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:
Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[5]
"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7]

I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue.  Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.

But clearly Rey is very talented.  So it's not without some merit.  But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?

Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story.  Much will depend on how her character develops.

[Legbiter]

Pudding: overegged.  Luke diced up that Walker pretty nicely.

Too bad about his copilot though. 

[Malthus]

Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be  ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.

Luke actually failed his way to success, only wheeled out like an idiot savant for certain set pieces where his force powers were required and carefully kept alive by the more competent around him. First he got beat up by the Tuskan raiders, saved by Obi, saved again by Obi at the cantina from those two ruffians, saved by Han Solo at the trench run in the end, saved by Han on Hoth, etc, etc, etc. Even in the end Luke utterly fails to actually defeat the Emperor, only saved by Vader.

Rey on the other hand is a hobo in god mode from the first minute, expert force user, brilliant pilot, mechanic, instant best buddies with Han, light saber virtuoso, yaddayadda.

She is easier on the eyes though than Luke was, agreed.

Rey has lived a different lifestyle than Luke. Luke was a farmhand. Rey lived as a scavenger, fighting off other scavengers. It isn't surprising she was better at infighting than Luke.

As for mechanic - she made her living climbing around inside starships and scavenging them.

Both characters suffered equally from "instantly good pilot" syndrome. Both had partial excuses, in that both "piloted" aircars (in Luke's case, blasting whomp-rats  ).

Instant buddies with Han Solo? Perhaps being a pretty chick, rather than a whiny dude, helps there.   

Rey learns about the force by imitating what Han Solo Jr. tries on her.

[celedhring]

If learning the Force was so easy as monkey sees, monkey does, Luke could have skipped Dagobah.

But I'm willing to give Rey's Mary-Sueness a pass until we know more about her, and what happens to her.

[Legbiter]

From Wikipedia (which for a pop culture meme like Mary Sue, seems as authoritative as any:

Origin and development of the meaning[edit]
The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters.[citation needed] By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:
Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[5]
"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7]

I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue.  Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.

But clearly Rey is very talented.  So it's not without some merit.  But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?

Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story.  Much will depend on how her character develops.

Bolded the most relevant parts. She instantly, without any schooling, force chokes the hell out of the Mary Sue criteria.

[Malthus]

If learning the Force was so easy as monkey sees, monkey does, Luke could have skipped Dagobah.

But I'm willing to give Rey's Mary-Sueness a pass until we know more about her, and what happens to her.

Well, it may be the case that "monkey see, monkey do" only applies to 'while the monkey is torturing you', which sorta rules out the good guys using that particular technique on Luke. 

Really, how much force-using does Rey do? She uses the 'suggestion' thingy on a stormtrooper, and she levitates Luke's lightsabre. The latter is at least partly because that object is 'rightfully' hers - her connection to it is established earlier, when she first finds it: for whatever reason, she has a bond with it (that explains why she could move it, while Han Solo Jr. can't). 

[Razgovory]

Man, I choked the hell out of someone without any formal training.  Sure he didn't die, but he was unconscious for like 20 minutes.

[Savonarola]

I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue.  Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.

But clearly Rey is very talented.  So it's not without some merit.  But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?

Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story.  Much will depend on how her character develops.

Anakin was ridiculous as well; force sensitive, child prodigy robot builder and only human who could compete in the chariot race.  Anakin, though, obviously lacks emotional maturity; he's a very flawed character.

Luke skills aren't that unbelievable; he's a skilled pilot and a decent shot.  Luke's flaws (until Return of the Jedi) are due to his youth; he's whines, he gets into scrapes and needs others to get him out.

Rey is an expert at hand to hand combat, a skilled pilot, a brilliant technician (to the point that she understands the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo) and can do Force tricks without any training.  More importantly she doesn't have any flaws.  She might not be an according to Hoyle "Mary Sue," but she is an over-idealized character.

[lustindarkness]

Man, I choked the hell out of someone without any formal training.  Sure he didn't die, but he was unconscious for like 20 minutes.

Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you!

[Malthus]

I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue.  Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.

But clearly Rey is very talented.  So it's not without some merit.  But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?

Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story.  Much will depend on how her character develops.

Anakin was ridiculous as well; force sensitive, child prodigy robot builder and only human who could compete in the chariot race.  Anakin, though, obviously lacks emotional maturity; he's a very flawed character.

Luke skills aren't that unbelievable; he's a skilled pilot and a decent shot.  Luke's flaws (until Return of the Jedi) are due to his youth; he's whines, he gets into scrapes and needs others to get him out.

Rey is an expert at hand to hand combat, a skilled pilot, a brilliant technician (to the point that she understands the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo) and can do Force tricks without any training.  More importantly she doesn't have any flaws.  She might not be an according to Hoyle "Mary Sue," but she is an over-idealized character.

I gotta disagree on this. Characters don't require glaring "flaws" to be entertaining characters. It is possible to have highly skilled characters that work in fiction.

In her case, her "flaws" are pretty apparent: she is emotionally scarred by her abandonment, to the point where she is continually tempted to give up the quest just to return to almost certainly futile waiting around on her crapsack planet for her abandoners to return.

I actually liked the way they underplayed that aspect. Unlike Luke, they did not make her overly broody or whiny about it. I don't get that making her whiny would have been an improvement, just so she could have obvious 'flaws'.   

My primary complaint about the movie as a whole is that is was obviously a retread, not that Rey spoiled it. 

[MadImmortalMan]

My main complaint so far is Andy Serkis' Supreme Leader. What the fuck kind of name is "Snoke"? That sounds like a villain for Teddy Ruxpin or the Gummy Bears, or a dastardly politician/industrialist/gangster in a 1930s pulp novel. And the creature in its CGI-ness looked out of place. And it reminded me decidedly too much of arse face from the Preacher comics.

Also, he's Gollum. 

[Legbiter]

Rey's just too modest; which is the kind of "flaw" a Mary Sue would have. 

[Malthus]

Rey's just too modest; which is the kind of "flaw" a Mary Sue would have.