Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Admiral Yi]

How, exactly, did the Académie française "standardized" the French language in ways that various other institutions in English-speaking countries, did not?

Told everyone to use "informatique" instead of "computer."  I can't think of an equivalent case in English.

[Razgovory]

I would assume he was talking about the Académie française.  Which without any profound knowledge of the topic, sounds like a pretty good attempt at standardization.

Of course that is what he is thinking about. But, as you indicated, the problem is "without any profound knowledge of the topic". It just presumes a bunch of stuff stemming from a crude set of vague ideas about "the French".

How, exactly, did the Académie française "standardized" the French language in ways that various other institutions in English-speaking countries, did not? Was there no process of standardization of English? I thought the whole point of the previous discussion was indeed that there are standards of English - indeed, anyone opening a variety of books from the 16th century will realize quite quickly, that the variations in punctuation, in spelling, in letter choices ("u" for "v") have all been standardized. It is, in fact, a process that is quite well studied, in increasingly fine detail thanks to digitized books.  So, I want to know, what it is that the Dictionnaire of the Académie did that the OED, the Webster, or Samuel Johnson's dictionary, did not.

What did the Academie have that Webster did not?  Government money and the power of law.

[Oexmelin]

What did the Academie have that Webster did not?  Government money and the power of law.

Please, do go on. Which law, exactly? What did "Government money" allowed the Académie to do?

[Oexmelin]

Told everyone to use "informatique" instead of "computer."  I can't think of an equivalent case in English.

What?

I am not sure what you are referring to. If you mean "ordinateur" for computer, the word was developed within IBM. If you refer to "informatique" for what is designated as "computer science" in the USA, the word was similarly developed elsewhere (within academia, in fact), and picked up by the corporate world. In the US, my understanding is that "informatics" was blocked from use by copyright issues...

I think a lot of people here are confused about what the Académie française is doing. It issues recommendations on new words, new realities, new technologies. Informatique and ordinateur were picked up by the public. "Mercatique", as an alternate form of marketing, was not, despite being a recommendation. The Académie gets some media coverage, but much less than, say, the new words entering the Larousse, or the Robert - much like you'll find short articles about the new words entering the OED. There are similar forces at play for terminology standardization in the USA, or in Canada - legislation does a lot of that job, departments of terminology, etc.. What the Académie has, is a public existence in the media that these departments do not have, but how it is supposed to actually translates into monstrous State standardization to a level unseen anywhere else remains, to me, a mystery. 

[Admiral Yi]

What?

I am not sure what you are referring to. If you mean "ordinateur" for computer, the word was developed within IBM. If you refer to "informatique" for what is designated as "computer science" in the USA, the word was similarly developed elsewhere (within academia, in fact), and picked up by the corporate world. In the US, my understanding is that "informatics" was blocked from use by copyright issues...

I think a lot of people here are confused about what the Académie française is doing. It issues recommendations on new words, new realities, new technologies. Informatique and ordinateur were picked up by the public. "Mercatique", as an alternate form of marketing, was not, despite being a recommendation. The Académie gets some media coverage, but much less than, say, the new words entering the Larousse, or the Robert - much like you'll find short articles about the new words entering the OED. There are similar forces at play for terminology standardization in the USA, or in Canada - legislation does a lot of that job, departments of terminology, etc.. What the Académie has, is a public existence in the media that these departments do not have, but how it is supposed to actually translates into monstrous State standardization to a level unseen anywhere else remains, to me, a mystery.

Oops.  Ordinateur.

The way I read the story ages and ages ago was that the French were using computer, the Acadamie said we can't use an English word, so we have to come up with a French word.

[Oexmelin]

The way I read the story ages and ages ago was that the French were using computer, the Acadamie said we can't use an English word, so we have to come up with a French word.

Nope. It's IBM attempting to sell its stuff in France, trying to find a French name. Asked a professor of medieval philology, who turned to the Littré dictionary (not even the Académie's...) and to Latin. IBM tried to copyright the word, but relented in the face of its popularity.

[Tamas]

Discussions on obscure little languages like English of French bore me.

[garbon]

Discussions on obscure little languages like English of French bore me.

I'm not even sure on what level this was supposed to work.

[Razgovory]

What did the Academie have that Webster did not?  Government money and the power of law.

Please, do go on. Which law, exactly? What did "Government money" allowed the Académie to do?

Have a big building, exist, publish, make recommendations to the government about official use, award prizes.

[Grey Fox]

The way I read the story ages and ages ago was that the French were using computer, the Acadamie said we can't use an English word, so we have to come up with a French word.

Nope. It's IBM attempting to sell its stuff in France, trying to find a French name. Asked a professor of medieval philology, who turned to the Littré dictionary (not even the Académie's...) and to Latin. IBM tried to copyright the word, but relented in the face of its popularity.

Are you seriously arguing that the Académie does not try to standardize french?

It's their stated mission.

XXIV
La principale fonction de l'Académie sera de travailler
avec tout le soin et toute la diligence possibles à donner
des règles certaines à notre langue et à la rendre pure,
éloquente et capable de traiter les arts et les sciences.

[Barrister]

I would assume he was talking about the Académie française.  Which without any profound knowledge of the topic, sounds like a pretty good attempt at standardization.

Of course that is what he is thinking about. But, as you indicated, the problem is "without any profound knowledge of the topic". It just presumes a bunch of stuff stemming from a crude set of vague ideas about "the French".

How, exactly, did the Académie française "standardized" the French language in ways that various other institutions in English-speaking countries, did not? Was there no process of standardization of English? I thought the whole point of the previous discussion was indeed that there are standards of English - indeed, anyone opening a variety of books from the 16th century will realize quite quickly, that the variations in punctuation, in spelling, in letter choices ("u" for "v") have all been standardized. It is, in fact, a process that is quite well studied, in increasingly fine detail thanks to digitized books.  So, I want to know, what it is that the Dictionnaire of the Académie did that the OED, the Webster, or Samuel Johnson's dictionary, did not.

Why don't you take that pole out of your butt for a second?

Look, my understanding is that the Académie française is the government-sponsored agency in charge of the French language.  The wiki page would confirm this:

The Académie is France's official authority on the usages, vocabulary, and grammar of the French language.

Which as an anglophone sounds odd, since we have no such official agency in charge of English.

If you want to go "hey, wait a second, doesn't the OED have a similar role in English", I'd be very interested in hearing that perspective.  I have no dog in this hunt - I'm not arguing for any particular point.  But no, you go off on me having "a crude set of vague ideas about "the French"" and attack me for saying something that, still, doesn't seem at all incorrect.

[garbon]

French speakers seem to have a helluva lot of chips on their shoulders.

Well at least the ones who post on Languish.

[Oexmelin]

If you want to go "hey, wait a second, doesn't the OED have a similar role in English", I'd be very interested in hearing that perspective.  I have no dog in this hunt - I'm not arguing for any particular point.  But no, you go off on me having "a crude set of vague ideas about "the French"" and attack me for saying something that, still, doesn't seem at all incorrect.

I know - though I used your post to go on, my points were not addressed to you, but to Raz, who (still) doesn't know what he is talking about. I am sorry if I came across as though I was spouting off at you.

[garbon]

What else is new with Raz though?

[Razgovory]

If you want to go "hey, wait a second, doesn't the OED have a similar role in English", I'd be very interested in hearing that perspective.  I have no dog in this hunt - I'm not arguing for any particular point.  But no, you go off on me having "a crude set of vague ideas about "the French"" and attack me for saying something that, still, doesn't seem at all incorrect.

I know - though I used your post to go on, my points were not addressed to you, but to Raz, who (still) doesn't know what he is talking about. I am sorry if I came across as though I was spouting off at you.

Okay, if I don't know why don't you tell me.  What was the purpose of the French government forming of the French Acadamy, and giving it a budget, staff and palace?