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Started by Syt, December 06, 2015, 01:55:02 PM

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Admiral Yi

Quote from: Norgy on September 05, 2025, 02:50:00 AMFuck no. Not in my line of work.


Journalists should disobey all police commands?

Norgy

No. Not all. But first and foremost, we should do our job, and that includes sometimes disobeying the poh-poh.

If some officer is holding someone down in a tight grip, you'd want to see video evidence, yeah?


Admiral Yi

Quote from: Norgy on September 05, 2025, 03:04:01 AMIf some officer is holding someone down in a tight grip, you'd want to see video evidence, yeah?



I would love to see evidence of police wrong doing.  I don't know if a tight grip qualifies.

The Minsky Moment

There are a lot of police orders that shouldn't be obeyed in a free society.  If the police demand to enter a residence without probable cause or a warrant, for example. If they demand a false confession.  If they demand a bribe.  And so on.

Police deserve respect and police properly acting under their authority should be obeyed.  But a society where the citizenry obey all police orders out of fear, even when improper, is a sick society.
We have, accordingly, always had plenty of excellent lawyers, though we often had to do without even tolerable administrators, and seen destined to endure the inconvenience of hereafter doing without any constructive statesmen at all.
--Woodrow Wilson

Josquius

Advice I've read is even basic stuff you shouldn't give them. Even if you're confident you've done nothing wrong. Things like unlocking your phone/telling them the pin.
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Norgy

The road towards a police state is a short one if no-one resists. Minsky is right.
As usual.

That irks me. He is always right.

DGuller

The practical problem I see with police interactions is that a regular citizen better be a constitutional lawyer if they want to protect their rights safely.  Complying with police when you have a right not to can get you in trouble, with the assumption that you waived your rights when you complied.  Not complying when you're actually obligated to can also get you in trouble.  Asking police to explain your legal rights might also not always work to your advantage.

That said, there are cases where it's a no-brainer.  If police want to arrest you, there is never a situation where not letting them do it will be to your advantage (unless it's a corner case like you're on the run from a wrongful conviction for which you've been sentenced to death, of course).

grumbler

When the police actually arrest you (not just threaten to do so) is when you need to obey them. Otherwise, you are better off with just saying "you do not have my permission to search me.  May I leave?"

If you are a witness to something, then complying with "tell me what you saw" is also obligatory.

Always remember that the police are not your friends. Thei objectives and yours may be very different, and cooperation in situations where cooperation is not required can lead to very bad things (like giving them probable cause and the ability to misuse what you say as evidence against you).
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

crazy canuck

I think DG has a point. Not the law is overly complicated, but a couple of things have happened. The general civic knowledge of the citizenry has declined such that the basic rules of engagement described by Grumbler are not well understood.

The second thing that is happening is that law-enforcement officials, and particularly in the United States, are increasingly acting outside of their legal authority.

The combination of these two factors is problematic to say the least.  And the worst possible advice is what Yi stated to be a truism.
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In several surveys, the overwhelming first choice for what makes Canada unique is multiculturalism. This, in a world collapsing into stupid, impoverishing hatreds, is the distinctly Canadian national project.

Syt

I don't really interact with police ever, but my base assumption is generally that at a scene they will care about order first and who's right/wrong second.
We are born dying, but we are compelled to fancy our chances.
- hbomberguy

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

Razgovory

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 05, 2025, 08:37:11 AMThere are a lot of police orders that shouldn't be obeyed in a free society.  If the police demand to enter a residence without probable cause or a warrant, for example. If they demand a false confession.  If they demand a bribe.  And so on.

Police deserve respect and police properly acting under their authority should be obeyed.  But a society where the citizenry obey all police orders out of fear, even when improper, is a sick society.
I was thinking more along the lines of a lawful order that you are required to follow.  Like show me your driver's license, get out of the car, that sort of thing.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Norgy

It boils down to trust in my opinion, really.

The police in Norway has become armed, as one of the last in Europe. And become a more closed-shop operation.

The work they do, I do respect. But when I am man-handled away from a crime scene, that does not build trust. They know me, I know them.

I suppose the bottom line is don't become a journalist.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Norgy on September 05, 2025, 09:29:13 AMThe road towards a police state is a short one if no-one resists. Minsky is right.
As usual.

That irks me. He is always right.


As I've mentioned before, I like watching cop cams.  The percentage of videos in which people disobey lawful orders is ginormous.  They believe they are "resisting."  They are wrong, and they pay the consequence.

Razgovory

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 05, 2025, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Norgy on September 05, 2025, 09:29:13 AMThe road towards a police state is a short one if no-one resists. Minsky is right.
As usual.

That irks me. He is always right.


As I've mentioned before, I like watching cop cams.  The percentage of videos in which people disobey lawful orders is ginormous.  They believe they are "resisting."  They are wrong, and they pay the consequence.
Yeah, I watch those as well.  They only put up the ones where the people refuse to obey a lawful order though.  They aren't putting up the ones where there is no arrest, which is most of them.  Still, it is helpful to see the annoying bullshit police have to go through on a regular basis.  Best one is where a guy is literally praying to Donald Trump, and then the police knock his window in.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEhlcdeO1jQ/?hl=en
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Admiral Yi

This is my favorite.  Tourist twats refuse to leave Univeral Studios after trespass.