Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Jacob]

The argument that "wherever Christianity spread, it coopted whatever local festivals that were in place" is propaganda from the reformation.  It's much easy to kill a priest and take his stuff if he's secretly a pagan.  There's not much truth in it.  I don't know of any records from ancient Rome that say "we made Christmas on the winter solstice".  This is possibly because it didn't occur on the winter solstice.  As for Easter, there is no known spring festival called "Easter" or anything like it.  The Anglo-Saxon's had a month named Eostre-month, and it might have had a festival on that month dedicated to the otherwise unknown goddess "Eostre".  We have one source for this: a couple of lines written by an aging monk.  Beyond that is conjecture.

Agreed on Easter and Eostre, who is as I understand it poorly attested. I think seeing Easter as a Christian version of Passover makes a lot more sense. Though it's hard for me not to expect pagan origins for all the bits with the eggs and rabbits and so on.

In Denmark (and the rest of Scandinavia) we celebrate "Jul" - aka Yule - as a Christian holiday. Jul was also - as the Brain says - a pre-Christian holiday. The food, drinking, and visiting culture around to holiday seem largely congruous with the pre-Christian customs. There are a number of rituals (leaving food for the house Nisse/ Tomte to keep him happy, straw goats, pork roast, the association with evergreen plants) that are pretty clearly pagan in origin. Furthermore, since Scandinavia is officially Lutheran, it's hard to give credit to the notion that those associations are somehow anti-Catholic.

Christianity co-opted local pagan traditions seems pretty obviously true in this case.

[Jacob]

All cultural elements are "coopted pagan religious elements"? Besides virtually all of Judaism and Christianity is full of coopted cultural artifacts from some previous culture, probably even a pagan one if we follow this ridiculous and fallacious line of bullshit. Should we then burn the whole bible as Pagan, Mr. El?

Whatever you do with your holy book in the privacy of your own home is your own business. But pretending things sprung fully formed ex nihilo (or ex deus, I suppose) rather than acknowledge their roots seems pretty silly.

As far as I understand, Judaism doesn't have a problem with acknowledging pre-Abrahamic roots of any of its rituals. At least in my experience proposals like "this custom was almost certainly picked up during the Babylonian captivity, as it is very common to Babylonian practices" and so on are just discussed matter of fact and with interest, without any apparent deep emotional investment.

[crazy canuck]

The exceptional claim is that Christianity was not influenced at all by the cultures in which it developed.

[Josquius]

All of the above. Its for logical reason that a lot of pagan religions celebrated the solstice. Its very possible they didn't even develop independently and came from a common ancestor festival.

So if any religion happens to have a celebration near a solstice or equinox it is automatically 'Pagan'? Halloween is not near either though and it certainly has jack shit to do with some ancient Satan religion, yet you praise this interpretation.

No. Pre Christian faiths tend to be clumped together as "pagan" specifically to differentiate them from Christians. It's a useful term to keep using as they do have commonalities in outlook making them pretty different to the abrahamic faiths.
A bunch of them happen to have solstace holidays. I've no idea if this is due to common ancestry or purely because it's a logical time to have a holiday. Christianity when setting up it's festivals noticed this was a good date to co-opt.
It's pretty simple stuff.

Halloween comes from one particular gaelic pagan festival and it isn't a Christian thing at all. All saints day sure. All saints eve... Not really.

Pagan beliefs being labelled as satanic is an age old tactic of Christians to cement support and demean opposition.

[Admiral Yi]

Going back to the sign in the door, I agree that the custom of blackmailing residents with the threat of damage to property is destructive and immoral and I'm glad that has largely been dropped from trick or treating.  Now it's just a costume show.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't know of any records from ancient Rome that say "we made Christmas on the winter solstice".  This is possibly because it didn't occur on the winter solstice. 

That's OK, always helpful to learn new facts:

https://historyandarchaeologyonline.com/roman-solstice-celebrations/

In 45 BC, Julius Caesar reorganised the Roman calendar. This reshuffling of dates shifted the date of the winter solstice to December 25

[The Minsky Moment]

https://wesleyscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Augustine-Sermons-184-229.pdf

See Sermon 194 - first sentence of second paragraph (on page 53) and note 3 at the end

[The Minsky Moment]

So if any religion happens to have a celebration near a solstice or equinox it is automatically 'Pagan'?

It's worth reflecting on the etymology of the word "pagan"

[Duque de Bragança]

All cultural elements are "coopted pagan religious elements"? Besides virtually all of Judaism and Christianity is full of coopted cultural artifacts from some previous culture, probably even a pagan one if we follow this ridiculous and fallacious line of bullshit. Should we then burn the whole bible as Pagan, Mr. El?

Whatever you do with your holy book in the privacy of your own home is your own business. But pretending things sprung fully formed ex nihilo (or ex deo, I suppose) rather than acknowledge their roots seems pretty silly.

Fixed! 
Ex + ablative

Christmas was also influenced by the Saturnalia, which also inspired Carnival. So yes, pretending things sprung fully ex nihilo is completely bonkers.

[Jacob]

Fixed! 
Ex + ablative

Thank you

Christmas was also influenced by the Saturnalia, which also inspired Carnival. So yes, pretending things sprung fully ex nihilo is completely bonkers.

Indeed.

[The Minsky Moment]

Besides virtually all of Judaism and Christianity is full of coopted cultural artifacts from some previous culture, probably even a pagan one if we follow this ridiculous and fallacious line of bullshit.

That's definitely true of Judaism (the first part not the fallacious bullshit part).  Much of the Old Testament presumes the existence of other gods (albeit those over which YHVH triumphs ).  The historical writings tells us over and over again how the people of land are worshipping the wrong gods in the wrong ways, confirming the historical and archaeological theories that these were accepted forms of worship in ancient Israel and Judah.

Should we then burn the whole bible as Pagan, Mr. El?

I'd say no but it's a free country.

[Razgovory]

I don't know of any records from ancient Rome that say "we made Christmas on the winter solstice".  This is possibly because it didn't occur on the winter solstice. 

That's OK, always helpful to learn new facts:

https://historyandarchaeologyonline.com/roman-solstice-celebrations/

In 45 BC, Julius Caesar reorganised the Roman calendar. This reshuffling of dates shifted the date of the winter solstice to December 25

The 25th was not the solstice in the third century.   

[Malthus]

My favorite weird survival in Genesis: the bit where the "sons of God" mate with mortal women and produce "heroes, men of renown". See Genesis 6:1-6:4.

This lead to literally centuries of speculation as to what was meant by "sons of God".

Christians tended to fo with the notion that these were "angels", perhaps fallen angels (though why they would have kids who were heroes or men of renown is difficult to say). The Jewish explanation tended to be that these were either the sons of Seth (the third child of Adam and Eve), or perhaps exalted but very human rulers. In any case, not literally "sons of God".

Obviously, it is difficult in modern Judaism to reconcile the Jewish notion of God with a being that literally has "sons".

However, it may well be the case that this is a survival of an earlier form of Judaism in which God was perceived much more physically - in line with say Greek notions of divinity. The Greeks had gods screwing humans all over the place, and their offspring were commonly heroes.

Again, if God had sons, who was their mom?

[The Minsky Moment]

The 25th was not the solstice in the third century.   

That's OK, Jesus wasn't born in the third century.

[Josquius]

Again, if God had sons, who was their mom?

Tricia Heifer.