Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Grey Fox]

I am not sure I understand what you are arguing anymore, Valmy.

[Valmy]

I am not sure I understand what you are arguing anymore, Valmy.

That France is not a dystopia just because it is slightly different than Missouri?

[Razgovory]

You keep pointing out the College of Arms in Britain.  Do they publish an official dictionary for Britain?  Is that Dictionary found in schools?  Does children's homework routinely rely on adherence to that dictionary?

I could point out dozens of similar institutions around the world for the preservation of culture. There are many classes in many schools that require you to learn and conform to certain cultural practices.

But I am not aware of the particular spelling and dictionary atrocity and outrage you are referring to. Granted trying to learn how to spell things in French is generally an atrocity.

I can't help but think you are trying to pull a fast one on me.

I think you are such a hateful bigot that you hold the French to an absurdly high standard. If they do not meet that unreasonable standard they are inferior in your eyes. Which is fucking idiotic considering what a fucked up place Missouri is.

Sure the French Academy doesn't have the ability to coerce, they only publish a dictionary.  Of course the Dictionary informs French usage public schools which are required.

Ok and we have a curriculum board in Texas which regulates how every fucking thing is taught. Including English. Hey Missouri does as well. So government agencies should not inform what is taught in public schools? What should do so then? I mean setting up a curriculum is not the same as forcing everybody in your country to hold those views. And further more I am not even sure the extent the dictionary informs schooling.

I do understand that the French don't like multiculturalism, and that's a black mark against them.

Many people don't like multi-culturalism. Because it tends to destroy cultures and make everything rather generic. That is cool over here, we destroy and eat cultures for breakfast, but over in the old world they based their entire nation states around it.

And their intolerance of other cultures within France is not limited to immigrants, but to people who have lived in France for centuries.  The French government has historically refused to even admit that other languages even exist in the country (as Zoupa so smugly pointed out), and made systematic efforts to destroy these languages.  Compare this to Canada where French is not only tolerated but given equal footing as English.

Well they didn't think of it that way. But you cannot bring up 19th century practices and then pretend that Canada has always embraced French. Also comparing old world and new world countries is inherently dishonest in things like this. They are based on totally different things.

I hold the French to the same standards as the US, Britain, Canada and Germany.  I think that's fair.  Should I hold them to the standards of China or Saudi Arabia?  Is that more appropriate?  Yes, I believe in multiculturalism, and any country that can tolerate its own citizens has a serious problem.  I have problems with any country devoted to the "purity" of race, religion or language. I have taken issue with the characterization that French Academy really is a meaningless organization that doesn't try to regulate and "purify" the French language, because clearly it is not.  At one time there were millions of Occitan speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the French government, don't you?  And please, do go on about Missouri, tell me every detail of why it is so bad.

[Valmy]

I hold the French to the same standards as the US, Britain, Canada and Germany.

Britain and Germany yes. The US no.

I think that's fair.  Should I hold them to the standards of China or Saudi Arabia?  Is that more appropriate?

China, maybe. They have kind of the same thing going on. Not sure about Saudi Arabia.

Yes, I believe in multiculturalism, and any country that can tolerate its own citizens has a serious problem.

I think France does pretty well tolerating its own citizens. Especially regarding things like race that we struggle with.

I have problems with any country devoted to the "purity" of race, religion or language.

France is not devoted to any of those things.

I have taken issue with the characterization that French Academy really is a meaningless organization that doesn't try to regulate and "purify" the French language, because clearly it is not.

I disagree. It is an ancient ceremonial cultural artifact. No more. And many countries have 'ministries of culture' and the like.

At one time there were millions of Occitan speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the French government, don't you?

At one time there were many regional speakers of many languages. Those are decreased now. The French, at the time, saw it as a regional dialect and were always trying to standardize but not to preserve the purity of anything. In any case now all the signs in Provence are printed in both French and Provencal. Just like today black Missourians are not property so long as we are pretending things that happened in the 19th century are still going on today.

Tuscan is now Italian. And frankly in the modern world it is just daft to have thousands of different languages. And in Europe those tend to lead to nationalism and war. I don't have any particular problem with national lingua francas being taught and encouraged. Hell it is one of the reasons in France everybody gets 12 years of English. Not that it seems to benefit them much

Which I have to admit so much public money for English learning kind of flies in the face of your claims of intolerance for other languages or a public policy of language purification

And please, do go on about Missouri, tell me every detail of why it is so bad.

As soon as you give me some details and not vague bullshit backing up what you say, sure.

[viper37]

At one time there were millions of Occitan speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the French government, don't you? 

At one time, there were thousands of Sioux speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the US government, don't you?
At one time, there were thousands of French speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the US government, don't you?
At one time, there were thousands of Cherokee speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the US government, don't you?

[garbon]

Can we put an end to this?  Raz, you're right.  Valmy, you're also right.

Are we compelling you to read this thread or something?

Your hijack is dull in a thread that is mostly amusing.

[Valmy]

Your hijack is dull in a thread that is mostly amusing.

Mine? Plenty of other people have participated in this discussion. And Raz started it by randomly attacking French in a stupid way out of nowhere for no reason at all.

Besides my role here is not to entertain you

[garbon]

Your hijack is dull in a thread that is mostly amusing.

Mine? Plenty of other people have participated in this discussion. And Raz started it by randomly attacking French in a stupid way out of nowhere for no reason at all.

Besides my role here is not to entertain you

Well it should be.

[Razgovory]

At one time there were millions of Occitan speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the French government, don't you? 

At one time, there were thousands of Sioux speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the US government, don't you?
At one time, there were thousands of French speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the US government, don't you?
At one time, there were thousands of Cherokee speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the US government, don't you?

This is true.  There were not, however hundreds of thousands of Sioux speakers, and there was not millions of French speakers.  The treatment of native Americans is very much a crime.  The French speakers simply vanished due to increased immigration.

[Razgovory]

I hold the French to the same standards as the US, Britain, Canada and Germany.

Britain and Germany yes. The US no.

I think that's fair.  Should I hold them to the standards of China or Saudi Arabia?  Is that more appropriate?

China, maybe. They have kind of the same thing going on. Not sure about Saudi Arabia.

Yes, I believe in multiculturalism, and any country that can tolerate its own citizens has a serious problem.

I think France does pretty well tolerating its own citizens. Especially regarding things like race that we struggle with.

I have problems with any country devoted to the "purity" of race, religion or language.

France is not devoted to any of those things.

I have taken issue with the characterization that French Academy really is a meaningless organization that doesn't try to regulate and "purify" the French language, because clearly it is not.

I disagree. It is an ancient ceremonial cultural artifact. No more. And many countries have 'ministries of culture' and the like.

At one time there were millions of Occitan speakers, now there aren't.  I rather think that has something to do with the French government, don't you?

At one time there were many regional speakers of many languages. Those are decreased now. The French, at the time, saw it as a regional dialect and were always trying to standardize but not to preserve the purity of anything. In any case now all the signs in Provence are printed in both French and Provencal. Just like today black Missourians are not property so long as we are pretending things that happened in the 19th century are still going on today.

Tuscan is now Italian. And frankly in the modern world it is just daft to have thousands of different languages. And in Europe those tend to lead to nationalism and war. I don't have any particular problem with national lingua francas being taught and encouraged. Hell it is one of the reasons in France everybody gets 12 years of English. Not that it seems to benefit them much

Which I have to admit so much public money for English learning kind of flies in the face of your claims of intolerance for other languages or a public policy of language purification

And please, do go on about Missouri, tell me every detail of why it is so bad.

As soon as you give me some details and not vague bullshit backing up what you say, sure.

Your position that the French Academy is just some peculiar oddity is simply absurd. Comparing it to a college of Heraldry is silly.  Few people use Heraldy, everyone uses a dictionary. It is a state institution charged with the purity of the language.  It produces the reference books for language that are used to educate the population.  If it was merely a cultural artifact it wouldn't be producing the official dictionary.  If it was in fact so obsolete it would have disappeared after two empires, three monarchies, five republics and a fascist state.

[Razgovory]

Your hijack is dull in a thread that is mostly amusing.

Mine? Plenty of other people have participated in this discussion. And Raz started it by randomly attacking French in a stupid way out of nowhere for no reason at all.

Besides my role here is not to entertain you

Saying France regulates its language is not an insult.  It's the stated mission of a part of it's government!

[DGuller]

I think it's safe to say that by now we're dealing with a folly of the non-Facebook kind.

[viper37]

Saying France regulates its language is not an insult. 

No, it's just an non truth.

The Académie does not depend on the government, and the government does not have to listen to it, nor do any citizen of France has to conform to it.

But just like English, there are vocabulary and grammar schools taught in schools.  You get bad grades if you don't write proper French in schools.  I'm guessing you have the same process in English speaking countries.

[Valmy]

It was originally delivered as an insult waaaaaaaay back like five pages ago.

I think it's safe to say that by now we're dealing with a folly of the non-Facebook kind.

A much more traditionally languish type of folly 

[viper37]

This is true.  There were not, however hundreds of thousands of Sioux speakers, and there was not millions of French speakers.  The treatment of native Americans is very much a crime.  The French speakers simply vanished due to increased immigration.

There was roughly 2.5 million Americans, white and mostly protestants, English speaking people at the time of your independance.  You have to keep proportions in sight.  Also, indians did not have census of their own, so we need to keep things in proportion.  The American government pursued of policy of extermination and assimilation of indians, that is a fact.  French speakers were also forced assimilated in areas they were settled.  Not that many French speakers in Detroit today, or neither in Lowell, MA.