Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[Zoupa]

France has passed laws (Quebec has, as well, I believe) regulating the use of language in signs and advertising (though I don't remember all the details).  Raz may be confusing such actual government action with the work of the Academy.

The Toubon Law on advertisement:

"Another broad provision of the law is that it makes it mandatory for commercial advertisements and public announcements to be given in French. This does not rule out advertisements made in a foreign language: it is sufficient to provide a translation in a footnote.  This was justified as a measure for the protection of the consumer. Additionally, product packaging must be in French, though, again, translation in multiple languages can be provided."

I'm so ashamed of my fascist country. 

[grumbler]

France has passed laws (Quebec has, as well, I believe) regulating the use of language in signs and advertising (though I don't remember all the details).  Raz may be confusing such actual government action with the work of the Academy.

The Toubon Law on advertisement:

"Another broad provision of the law is that it makes it mandatory for commercial advertisements and public announcements to be given in French. This does not rule out advertisements made in a foreign language: it is sufficient to provide a translation in a footnote.  This was justified as a measure for the protection of the consumer. Additionally, product packaging must be in French, though, again, translation in multiple languages can be provided."

I'm so ashamed of my fascist country. 

Toubon Law, that's it.  Doesn't seem very fascist to me, but you may have a different definition of tolerance than I do. 

[viper37]

This is true.  There were not, however hundreds of thousands of Sioux speakers, and there was not millions of French speakers.  The treatment of native Americans is very much a crime.  The French speakers simply vanished due to increased immigration.

There was roughly 2.5 million Americans, white and mostly protestants, English speaking people at the time of your independance.  You have to keep proportions in sight.  Also, indians did not have census of their own, so we need to keep things in proportion.  The American government pursued of policy of extermination and assimilation of indians, that is a fact.  French speakers were also forced assimilated in areas they were settled.  Not that many French speakers in Detroit today, or neither in Lowell, MA.

It's true that these Indians didn't have a census, because they lived in a stone age culture.  The largest movement of Indians was the trail of tears, which saw the forced migration of 16,000 Indians ( of various tribes) over a period of two decades.

16 000, that's only the lastest forced migration of Cherokees.  Out of that 16 000 Cherokees, at least 12% died.
Before 1837, 46 000 Indians had been forced removed from their shrunk traditional lands.  The latest migration was the Cherokees in 1838.  That's at least 46 000 people, already decimated by wars, famine and disease since the arrival of the first colonists.  Which explains their low numbers. 

This is from just one event over a very short period of time, about a decade for most of the events.

The total number of Indians in the US, following estimates was between 2 and 18 million souls at the time of the colonization of the US.

  At the time were between 15 million and 23 million people living in the US.

17 million, including 2.5 million slaves.

  The part of about the French being forced to assimilate you just made up.  Missouri had French speakers, but they number never numbered more then a few thousand  When the US purchased the Louisiana territory it was thought to have seven million inhabitants, maybe 10,000 of them were French.

How many French speakers today in the US, people who use French as their primary language in everday lives?
You do know that many Acadians were deported to the US in 1755, right?  Roughly 7000 people deported in US colonies.  Not one of them was allowed to keep their language there.
Today's Cajuns are descendants of the Acadians deported to France.  They were not allowed to keep their language once Lousiana was integrated to the US, not until very recently where they could have schools to teach the language.

(of course they weren't speaking real French but a Patois, and their language would have been forcibly eliminated by the French government.

"Real" French, just like English, has evolved over the years.  The English spoken in Missouri in the 18-19th century would have been different than today's English, and if anyone spoke 19th century English, we'd likely call it a Patois today.  So that argument is silly.
Unless you want to make the claim the US government brutally eliminated local dialect in an horrible crime against humanity, just like France?

[Valmy]

I love how he slips in little Libertarianisms about how any government regulation is suddenly an act of force.

[LaCroix]

viper, why do you think the french were forced to assimilate rather than they naturally assimilated?

[Valmy]

viper, why do you think the french were forced to assimilate rather than they naturally assimilated?

Louisiana was overwhelmed by Southern Immigrants who then passed laws reducing French and shit. But again the intention was to help ease communication and establish a Lingua Franca, not forcibly commit atrocities.

[LaCroix]

meant those comments about michigan, etc.

[Berkut]

I don't think there is any real difference between some group of people's use of French declining over time and say, the Holocaust.

[Valmy]

meant those comments about michigan, etc.

I am not well informed about those states but I imagine similar dynamics occurred.

[Valmy]

I don't think there is any real difference between some group of people's use of French declining over time and say, the Holocaust.

But what about some group of people's use of French increasing over time?

[Berkut]

I don't think there is any real difference between some group of people's use of French declining over time and say, the Holocaust.

But what about some group of people's use of French increasing over time?

War crime, obviously.

I cannot even imagine what kind of abuse of power it would take for something like that to happen. Not even sure it is possible.

[Valmy]

I cannot even imagine what kind of abuse of power it would take for something like that to happen. Not even sure it is possible.

[Razgovory]

I love how he slips in little Libertarianisms about how any government regulation is suddenly an act of force.

Of course government regulations is an act of force.  What else would it be?

[The Brain]

I love how he slips in little Libertarianisms about how any government regulation is suddenly an act of force.

Of course government regulations is an act of force.  What else would it be?

Yeah. Don't make Michael Ironside come out there!

[Razgovory]

This is true.  There were not, however hundreds of thousands of Sioux speakers, and there was not millions of French speakers.  The treatment of native Americans is very much a crime.  The French speakers simply vanished due to increased immigration.

There was roughly 2.5 million Americans, white and mostly protestants, English speaking people at the time of your independance.  You have to keep proportions in sight.  Also, indians did not have census of their own, so we need to keep things in proportion.  The American government pursued of policy of extermination and assimilation of indians, that is a fact.  French speakers were also forced assimilated in areas they were settled.  Not that many French speakers in Detroit today, or neither in Lowell, MA.

It's true that these Indians didn't have a census, because they lived in a stone age culture.  The largest movement of Indians was the trail of tears, which saw the forced migration of 16,000 Indians ( of various tribes) over a period of two decades.

16 000, that's only the lastest forced migration of Cherokees.  Out of that 16 000 Cherokees, at least 12% died.
Before 1837, 46 000 Indians had been forced removed from their shrunk traditional lands.  The latest migration was the Cherokees in 1838.  That's at least 46 000 people, already decimated by wars, famine and disease since the arrival of the first colonists.  Which explains their low numbers. 

This is from just one event over a very short period of time, about a decade for most of the events.

The total number of Indians in the US, following estimates was between 2 and 18 million souls at the time of the colonization of the US.

  At the time were between 15 million and 23 million people living in the US.

17 million, including 2.5 million slaves.

  The part of about the French being forced to assimilate you just made up.  Missouri had French speakers, but they number never numbered more then a few thousand  When the US purchased the Louisiana territory it was thought to have seven million inhabitants, maybe 10,000 of them were French.

How many French speakers today in the US, people who use French as their primary language in everday lives?
You do know that many Acadians were deported to the US in 1755, right?  Roughly 7000 people deported in US colonies.  Not one of them was allowed to keep their language there.
Today's Cajuns are descendants of the Acadians deported to France.  They were not allowed to keep their language once Lousiana was integrated to the US, not until very recently where they could have schools to teach the language.

(of course they weren't speaking real French but a Patois, and their language would have been forcibly eliminated by the French government.

"Real" French, just like English, has evolved over the years.  The English spoken in Missouri in the 18-19th century would have been different than today's English, and if anyone spoke 19th century English, we'd likely call it a Patois today.  So that argument is silly.
Unless you want to make the claim the US government brutally eliminated local dialect in an horrible crime against humanity, just like France?

You are mixing up numbers.  I refered to the trail of tears, the 48,000 Indians deported occurred in the decades prior.  Pretty much since the US was founded.  No French Accadian were deported to the US in 1755.  I can be absolutely certain of that.  Where they deported to and who did not allow them to speak their language I have no idea, but it was not the US.