The problem of Islamic radicalism

[The Minsky Moment]

But the mentality of Nazism was defeated by the attractive force of alternative ideologies.

That is somewhat disingenuous. The utter destruction of the state carrying and sponsoring the ideology in the most violent, total conflict in history cannot be neatly distinguished from "the attractive force of alternate ideologies".

Sure it can.  Nazi ideas survived the military conflict, perhaps rebranded, but they are still around today and in some places resurgent.  It's true that catastrophic military defeat, in addition to physically removing leadership, seriously discredited an ideology that glorified martiality.  But ideas can suffer those kinds of setbacks and survive - plenty of Nazi victims can testify to that.

[Berkut]

The Pew Poll, for example, found that in Egypt 64% of respondents support the death penalty for apostasy. That means that about a third of the respondents apparently did not feel that their answers would get them in trouble.

True but the same poll found little support for that punishment among Muslims in Central Asia, Europe, Indonesia, and Thailand (but 62% in Malaysia ); it had less than 50% in Bangladesh, Tunisia, Lebanon, and Iraq.  The Pew poll missed some key countries but it is likely that overall support for the DP in apostasy is a minority position in Islam today.  Admittedly it is not cause for wild celebration but it is interesting in light of the fact that the death penalty for apostasy, despite being absent from the Qur'an, is a key defining characteristic of Islamic law and jurisprudence, and a major theme in the traditions (Hadith).  It means that a majority of Muslims are content to hold views in defiance of Sharia.

And that is certainly good to know - but it doesn't refute my point, which is that there are a shitload of Muslims who truly believe very horrifying things. And those beliefs are specifically religious in nature, and they believe those things for religious reasons.

It doesn't matter to my point if the genesis of those beliefs was the Koran or something totally sescular - NOW they are religious beliefs.

I am NOT (I am getting really tired of saying this) arguing that the ONLY way one can have crazy, fucked up beliefs is religion, or that all religious people have crazy fucked up beliefs.

I am simply stating that these particular religious people with crazy fucked up beliefs that lead them to do crazy, fucked up things like terrorism, stoning adulterers, tossing gay people from buildings, killing those who exercise religious choice, etc., etc. are doing so for religious reasons, and if we are not willing to accept that, we are not going to make good choices in how to handle it.

We have people arguing that this is NOT a religious problem at all - if that is the case, then we should not support moderate Muslims in any particular sense, since the problem is not religious, the solution is not religious. I think exactly the opposite. The problem is very much religious, so we very much need to support the non-crazy fucked up religious people in their overall community. Since it isn't realistic to just convince a billion plus Muslims to just give up their religion, we have to figure out a way to get more of them (a LOT more of them) to embrace the moderate set of their religion.

It is great ,I guess, that a majority of Muslims are not in favor of murdering apostates. However, it is terrifying that a huge number, a hundred million plus, are of the mindset that looks at a world where killing people for the crime of not being Muslim is seen as reasonable and a religious duty.

It is like noting that there are apparently tens of millions of Americans who think Trump or Carson would be a great choice to lead the country. It isn't just about that particular bit of crazy, but about what kind of thinking could produce such an obviously fucked up answer - you know that isn't the extent of their fuckedupedness.

[The Minsky Moment]

It is great ,I guess, that a majority of Muslims are not in favor of murdering apostates.

Think of it as a glass half full.

[Razgovory]

But the mentality of Nazism was defeated by the attractive force of alternative ideologies.

That is somewhat disingenuous. The utter destruction of the state carrying and sponsoring the ideology in the most violent, total conflict in history cannot be neatly distinguished from "the attractive force of alternate ideologies".

Sure it can.  Nazi ideas survived the military conflict, perhaps rebranded, but they are still around today and in some places resurgent.  It's true that catastrophic military defeat, in addition to physically removing leadership, seriously discredited an ideology that glorified martiality.  But ideas can suffer those kinds of setbacks and survive - plenty of Nazi victims can testify to that.

Nazism should be seen as nationally specific form of fascism.  There are Fascist regimes in the world today, some in the Middle East and they are losing ground... to the Islamist ones.  I would say that the Nasserites, and the Baathist are Arab forms of fascism as are some groups in Turkey including elements in the CHP.  On the other hand in Europe Fascists seem to be riding propelling themselves on the issue we are discussing right now.  It's been suggested on this board a certain Presidential candidate is doing the same...

[LaCroix]

We have people arguing that this is NOT a religious problem at all - if that is the case, then we should not support moderate Muslims in any particular sense, since the problem is not religious, the solution is not religious.

yeah, let's not support people who advocate peace

[Admiral Yi]

What does this support for moderate Muslims that a number of you are mentioning look like practice?

[Razgovory]

What does this support for moderate Muslims that a number of you are mentioning look like practice?

A free Christmas ham?

[Martinus]

It is great ,I guess, that a majority of Muslims are not in favor of murdering apostates.

Think of it as a glass half full.

Majority of Germans was probably against turning Jews into soap. That did not prevent us from carpet bombing Dresden.

[Razgovory]

That wasn't why the Dresden was bombed.

[viper37]

But the mentality of Nazism was defeated by the attractive force of alternative ideologies.

That is somewhat disingenuous. The utter destruction of the state carrying and sponsoring the ideology in the most violent, total conflict in history cannot be neatly distinguished from "the attractive force of alternate ideologies".

Sure it can.  Nazi ideas survived the military conflict, perhaps rebranded, but they are still around today and in some places resurgent.  It's true that catastrophic military defeat, in addition to physically removing leadership, seriously discredited an ideology that glorified martiality.  But ideas can suffer those kinds of setbacks and survive - plenty of Nazi victims can testify to that.

nazi parties were forbidden in many countries.  Displaying a nazi symbol today would land you in legal trouble in some countries, with an expensive lawsuit in some other.

I think it's time to fight against the modern symbols of fascism in our countries, and for that, we need to purge all religion from government, to make it clear we will tolerate this no more than we tolerate nazism.

[Berkut]

We have people arguing that this is NOT a religious problem at all - if that is the case, then we should not support moderate Muslims in any particular sense, since the problem is not religious, the solution is not religious.

yeah, let's not support people who advocate peace

Wow, did you really miss the point that thoroughly?

Of course we should support them, because it is (despite your claims) a religious problem, with a religious foundation, and hence supporting a religious solution makes perfect sense.

It would NOT make sense if we just all said "Yeah, imperialism sure does suck! Good thing this has nothing to do with religion!"

[mongers]

Berkut, you're just going to have to accept there is No problem with 'Islamic radicalism' 

[The Brain]

I have listened to both sides and I'm sorry but I have to come down on the "Western imperialism did it" side. Brown people are incapable of taking any action that isn't driven by white people.

[crazy canuck]

Berkut, you're just going to have to accept there is No problem with 'Islamic radicalism' 

Or to put it more accurately.  That there are other causes of terrorism that need to be considered rather than the very narrow view the radical Islam is THE problem.

[Jacob]

It would NOT make sense if we just all said "Yeah, imperialism sure does suck! Good thing this has nothing to do with religion!"

I'll agree with you that that's not a particularly useful approach.