The problem of Islamic radicalism

[Martinus]

Support moderate Muslims, take a stronger stance protecting those within the Islamic countries, cut ties to the autocratic and theocratic regimes like Saudi Arabia or Bahrain, dedicate resources to civil rights education among Muslim communities in the West.

I don't have any particular objections to these actions, at least on the face of it, but I'm not sure I see how that follows from accepting that Islam carries within in it the seeds for terroristic violence to a particular degree as that, presumably, applies to moderate Muslims as well.

On the last point, we've had long discussions here about what approaches work best for integrating Muslims - and others - into liberal societies. Personally, I think the recent (well, from this summer) Ontario incident of three sisters with the surname Mohamed who were in the news for being topless on a hot summer day in spite of illegal attempts to stop them is an illustration that the Canadian approach works

I think we could agree that Islamic conservatism carries within it the seed of violence.

[Jacob]

And one of the main compoments of this is protecting equality under law. We should be equally ruthless in protecting the right of a muslim guy to be gay or a muslim girl to abandon her religion as we should be in protecting the right of a muslim guy to pray 5 times a day or a muslim girl to wear a head scarf.

Sounds good to me.

[Jacob]

I think we could agree that Islamic conservatism carries within it the seed of violence.

Sure, but lots of things carry within them the seed of violence. The subject of this thread as I understand it is whether Islamic conservatism carries this seed within it to a particular degree (compared to, say, Communism, environmentalism, gun rights advocacy, pro life advocacy, nationalism, white supremacy, being a football fan, belonging to a particular ethnic group, being a man, and many other political persuasions and group identities), and whether the presence of that seed is due to some inherent characteristic of Islam as a faith as opposed to the various cultural, economic, political, and social forces that have shaped particular manifestations of it.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't have any particular objections to these actions, at least on the face of it, but I'm not sure I see how that follows from accepting that Islam carries within in it the seeds for terroristic violence to a particular degree as that, presumably, applies to moderate Muslims as well.

On the last point, we've had long discussions here about what approaches work best for integrating Muslims - and others - into liberal societies. Personally, I think the recent (well, from this summer) Ontario incident of three sisters with the surname Mohamed who were in the news for being topless on a hot summer day in spite of illegal attempts to stop them is an illustration that the Canadian approach works

The Canadian approach also produced the recent attacks on members of the Canadian military.

[Jacob]

The Canadian approach also produced the recent attacks on members of the Canadian military.

True enough.

What approach do you think would have prevented those?

[Admiral Yi]

True enough.

What approach do you think would have prevented those?

I don't know. 

Do you think that a few attacks every few years means the approach is working?

[Jacob]

True enough.

What approach do you think would have prevented those?

I don't know. 

Do you think that a few attacks every few years means the approach is working?

My primary metric is not based on attacks, but overall integration of newcomers. So no, I don't think a few attacks means the approach is working; I think the approach is working based on overall impressions.

If you are speaking of the two attacks in 2014, I don't think the actions of two Canadian born self-converts to Islam particularly reflects on the Canadian approach, to be honest.

[The Minsky Moment]

We fight an ideology, like we fought nazism.

"we" - the us, Canada, UK - didn't fight Nazism, we fought Nazi Germany, a state where the Nazi party was in control.
We defeated that state militarily and then proscribed the party members by force.
But the mentality of Nazism was defeated by the attractive force of alternative ideologies.

Ultimately, the only way to beat an idea is with a better more attractive idea. It can be long frustrating work but it is the only sure way.  And beating your chest and proclaiming how bad the other idea sucks may feel good but it doesn't really advance the ball.

[The Minsky Moment]

And again, that is just an example. Are you similarly ok with a death sentence for apoststay? Not religious, we can find all kind of examples of that we aren't worried about as well? Or honor killing? Or the myriad of lesser examples that are not quite so horrifying but still problematic from any kind of liberal viewpoint? 

I have huge problems with them, but they aren't inherently "Islamic" problems - for example, honor killings based on caste differences are regrettably common in India.  Stoning is not a prescribed punishment in the Qur'an at all; it found its way into some formulations of Islamic law because it was a common cultural practice.   Note that Afghanistan for example implements Sharia but prohibits stoning.  Even the Iranian judicial authorities have pronounced against the practice.  The key exception here again is the Wahabbi-dominated Gulf states.

That's not to say these things have "nothing to do" with Islam - obviously they do.  The takeaway is that those within the religion that resist such practices and denounce them as anti-Islamic deserve our support.

Side note - Apostasy is one area where Islam stands out as unusually punitive, with all the major schools of jurisprudence prescribing death after a period to allow recantation.  Although once again, the punishment is extra-Quranic and there is very lively disagreement on that point.

[Razgovory]

I think in the back your mind you have an idea what to do, but you are still decent enough to know it is wrong.

I think this is being patently unfair to Berkut.

You have no problem making that same jump in the next post talking to Crazy Ivan.

[crazy canuck]

Ruthlessly enforce the right to diversity.  I like that turn of phrase Marti. 

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, but I think we should stick to our principles, but we should not mistake them for being soft. Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, as some wise man once said.

And one of the main compoments of this is protecting equality under law. We should be equally ruthless in protecting the right of a muslim guy to be gay or a muslim girl to abandon her religion as we should be in protecting the right of a muslim guy to pray 5 times a day or a muslim girl to wear a head scarf.

Why do you think I am being sarcastic.  I am agreeing with you.  I used a nice smiley and everything.  Sheesh.

Also your view is one I have argued many times here - most recently in the Canadian politics thread during the last election.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Pew Poll, for example, found that in Egypt 64% of respondents support the death penalty for apostasy. That means that about a third of the respondents apparently did not feel that their answers would get them in trouble.

True but the same poll found little support for that punishment among Muslims in Central Asia, Europe, Indonesia, and Thailand (but 62% in Malaysia ); it had less than 50% in Bangladesh, Tunisia, Lebanon, and Iraq.  The Pew poll missed some key countries but it is likely that overall support for the DP in apostasy is a minority position in Islam today.  Admittedly it is not cause for wild celebration but it is interesting in light of the fact that the death penalty for apostasy, despite being absent from the Qur'an, is a key defining characteristic of Islamic law and jurisprudence, and a major theme in the traditions (Hadith).  It means that a majority of Muslims are content to hold views in defiance of Sharia.

[crazy canuck]

I don't have any particular objections to these actions, at least on the face of it, but I'm not sure I see how that follows from accepting that Islam carries within in it the seeds for terroristic violence to a particular degree as that, presumably, applies to moderate Muslims as well.

On the last point, we've had long discussions here about what approaches work best for integrating Muslims - and others - into liberal societies. Personally, I think the recent (well, from this summer) Ontario incident of three sisters with the surname Mohamed who were in the news for being topless on a hot summer day in spite of illegal attempts to stop them is an illustration that the Canadian approach works

The Canadian approach also produced the recent attacks on members of the Canadian military.

You do understand that the Conservatives (a party that was happy to spout Yi friendly rhetoric) was in power then right?

[Oexmelin]

But the mentality of Nazism was defeated by the attractive force of alternative ideologies.

That is somewhat disingenuous. The utter destruction of the state carrying and sponsoring the ideology in the most violent, total conflict in history cannot be neatly distinguished from "the attractive force of alternate ideologies".

[Jacob]

You have no problem making that same jump in the next post talking to Crazy Ivan.

I did not mean to impute those positions on him. I was asking him if those were the responses he considered appropriate, and I will happily take no for an answer.