The Paris Attack Debate Thread

[Grinning_Colossus]

Your above-stated concerns about oblivion should, if anything, keep an atheist from every contemplating suicide.

Then you really haven't thought enough about the subject.  Go ahead, think about it some.  Think about it for three months straight and come back and tell what you think.

I am no stranger to existential anxiety, believe me. Those episodes invariably lead me to look for ways to cheat death. Existence is infinitely better than the alternative; There's no room for hope in oblivion.

There is no room for hope, period.  You will die.  The Earth will die.  All free energy will die.  There's a reason why there's a link between suicide and atheism.  It's why I want to believe in a God.  It is a hope, however slim.

These will occur on very different timescales. And we might be able to think something up in a billion years.

[mongers]

Your above-stated concerns about oblivion should, if anything, keep an atheist from every contemplating suicide.

Then you really haven't thought enough about the subject.  Go ahead, think about it some.  Think about it for three months straight and come back and tell what you think.

I am no stranger to existential anxiety, believe me. Those episodes invariably lead me to look for ways to cheat death. Existence is infinitely better than the alternative; There's no room for hope in oblivion.

There is no room for hope, period.  You will die.  The Earth will die.  All free energy will die.  There's a reason why there's a link between suicide and atheism.  It's why I want to believe in a God.  It is a hope, however slim.

So these suicide bombers and terrorists did have some slim hope that there really will be 72 virgin brides awaiting each of them?

[LaCroix]

Yes, but those are still subjective feelings.  Chemical reactions. Are they objectively worth anything?  Not really.

your notions on existence being worthless is also a chemical reaction.

[DGuller]

Yes, but those are still subjective feelings.  Chemical reactions. Are they objectively worth anything?  Not really.

Is the feeling of hunger worth anything?  I don't know, I just fucking eat when I get it.

[garbon]

Very odd.

That's what they said at Fulton State Hospital.

What you've described sounds far less bleak than say if I die, I get to spend an eternity in Hell.

[DGuller]

Very odd.

That's what they said at Fulton State Hospital.

What you've described sounds far less bleak than say if I die, I get to spend an eternity in Hell.

You know, you still have to time to get that homosexuality taken care of.   I'm sure there are plenty of non-suicidal religious leaders willing to work with you on that.

[Eddie Teach]

What you've described sounds far less bleak than say if I die, I get to spend an eternity in Hell.

It kinda sounded like it *was* hell. I'm not sure how there'd be an afterlife with no God, yet there you are silently screaming in an elevator for eternity. 

[Berkut]

Why should an atheist be suicidal? It's the theist who is the plaything of a powerful, capricious being.

Because his living body and and his dead one have the exactly the same intrinsic value.

Given that your conception of what atheism must lead to, and the observation that atheists are not off killing themselves left and right, you might consider that perhaps your conception might have some flaws in it.

[DGuller]

Why should an atheist be suicidal? It's the theist who is the plaything of a powerful, capricious being.

Because his living body and and his dead one have the exactly the same intrinsic value.

Given that your conception of what atheism must lead to, and the observation that atheists are not off killing themselves left and right, you might consider that perhaps your conception might have some flaws in it.

No true atheist doesn't kill himself.

[Razgovory]

Why should an atheist be suicidal? It's the theist who is the plaything of a powerful, capricious being.

Because his living body and and his dead one have the exactly the same intrinsic value.

Given that your conception of what atheism must lead to, and the observation that atheists are not off killing themselves left and right, you might consider that perhaps your conception might have some flaws in it.

I didn't say they were going to kill themselves, I said they were at least vaguely suicidal.  Some of course are atheists because it makes them feel superior to others.  The ones that I call "posers".  The observation that atheists are not killing themselves "left and right", is not a very stringent one.  Care you clarify what you mean?

[Razgovory]

Your above-stated concerns about oblivion should, if anything, keep an atheist from every contemplating suicide.

Then you really haven't thought enough about the subject.  Go ahead, think about it some.  Think about it for three months straight and come back and tell what you think.

I am no stranger to existential anxiety, believe me. Those episodes invariably lead me to look for ways to cheat death. Existence is infinitely better than the alternative; There's no room for hope in oblivion.

There is no room for hope, period.  You will die.  The Earth will die.  All free energy will die.  There's a reason why there's a link between suicide and atheism.  It's why I want to believe in a God.  It is a hope, however slim.

So these suicide bombers and terrorists did have some slim hope that there really will be 72 virgin brides awaiting each of them?

In a materialist universe not at all.  In such a universe the idea that you can shoot up music venue to get to a higher plane of existence is objectively wrong.  Here's the kicker, though.  Going on a shooting rampage is not objectively wrong.  It is no more right or wrong then winning the Nobel prize in peace.

[Razgovory]

Yes, but those are still subjective feelings.  Chemical reactions. Are they objectively worth anything?  Not really.

your notions on existence being worthless is also a chemical reaction.

This is true, my understanding of it and my reaction to it is a chemical reaction.  The reality of it is also true.  I can have an understanding of the sun that is close to objective reality, that the sun is a big ball hydrogen fusion.  This is fairly close to what the sun actually is.  If I understand it as a the shield of warrior marching across the sky or as a chariot of Ra, this is a also a chemical reaction but my understanding is not very close to the reality of the sun.

[Razgovory]

Very odd.

That's what they said at Fulton State Hospital.

What you've described sounds far less bleak than say if I die, I get to spend an eternity in Hell.

Good for you.  I imagine that coping mechanism is common among a lot people.  Especially ones that do things that are prohibited by a religion, like murder or theft.

[frunk]

Personally I find Atheism much more comforting than the idea of an intelligent being designing a capricious and violent universe for individuals to suffer in, and in which there is no physical evidence that there is anything after death.  However awful nothing is an all powerful being out to cause pain is much worse, even if redemption is supposedly possible.

The idea of dying and all of my existence going away doesn't bother me, it's an intrinsic part of life.  Whatever minimal point my life has it would be diminished if by continuing to exist I prevented something else from having its chance at life.  To be bothered by the idea of the universe ceasing to exist billions of years from now strikes me as silly, I'm much more bothered by the idea that there are incredible and amazing things going on in other places and times of the universe that I'll never get to see.

I get to choose the point of my life, it only matters to me and it won't matter at all once I'm dead.  I don't have the ego or hubris to think my life should matter more than that.

[Grinning_Colossus]

The implications of a materialist universe are quite dire, and likely to send a mind reeling, looking for alternatives. Recent history (the last century or two) is, I think, the story of humanity grappling those implications, either by writing new values on new tablets, or distracting ourselves with striving and consumption, or clinging to old cosmologies with ferocious desperation. So this digression is actually quite relevant: Raqqa is a product of the Enlightenment as much as is New York or Pyongyang.