Why I've started to believe that religion is actively dangerous

[LaCroix]

also, most people who suicide bomb in the middle east seem to do it for financial reasons. the violent groups in the middle east have set up a great reward system. if you studied the reasons why each modern, middle eastern suicide bomber decides to suicide bomb, you'd likely find that afterlife isn't as important a factor as some seem to think.

[viper37]

also, most people who suicide bomb in the middle east seem to do it for financial reasons. the violent groups in the middle east have set up a great reward system. if you studied the reasons why each modern, middle eastern suicide bomber decides to suicide bomb, you'd likely find that afterlife isn't as important a factor as some seem to think.

maybe they wouldn't do it without financial reward, but maybe they wouldn't do it without religious support either.

[Jacob]

also, most people who suicide bomb in the middle east seem to do it for financial reasons. the violent groups in the middle east have set up a great reward system. if you studied the reasons why each modern, middle eastern suicide bomber decides to suicide bomb, you'd likely find that afterlife isn't as important a factor as some seem to think.

As I understand it, there are frequently also some mental health and/ or social reasons behind it.

Personally, I think there are likely significant parallels between suicide bombers in the Middle East and people who go on mass shooting sprees in the US.

Of course, there are significant differences as well.

[Admiral Yi]

Of course, there are significant differences as well.

The most obvious being that a shooting spree is the ultimate act of alienation whereas a suicide attack is an act of belonging.

[The Brain]

Belonging? They end up all over the place.

[LaCroix]

maybe they wouldn't do it without financial reward, but maybe they wouldn't do it without religious support either.

that assertion doesn't make sense, and thanks to the many example provided by people in this thread, there's evidence they just might.

As I understand it, there are frequently also some mental health and/ or social reasons behind it.

sure, that makes sense. maybe a combination of all sorts of different factors.

but it's so easy to say "godreligion did it."

[Malthus]

One major motive is that it is considered heroic. Lots of people want to be heroes to the group they identify with, and are willing to die to do so. Our culture is not really so very different in that respect - it honours as heroes people who willingly die achiving some goal our culture considers praiseworthy.

The odd part is not that people are willig to die for a cause, but that the "goal considered praiseworthy" is blowing up a bunch of random civilians. 

[Jacob]

Of course, there are significant differences as well.

The most obvious being that a shooting spree is the ultimate act of alienation whereas a suicide attack is an act of belonging.

I don't think the difference is that stark on that count, though I do see where you're coming from.

When it comes to the shooters, they often seem to imagine it's an act of belonging to some home-cooked militant philosophy, whether it's half-baked IRA sympathizers, delusional mens-right-advocates lashing out at feminists, white power types or so on. They're still grasping at belonging as they lash out, though it eludes them.

The suicide bombers, of course, have an available infrastructure to offer them defacto belonging, to coax them, and to use them as actual military assets. But I'd hypothesize that the basic structure of individual alienation leading to embracing some violent philosophy that justifies acting out as a form of belonging is common to both types.

... at least IMO, of course.

[Jacob]

One major motive is that it is considered heroic. Lots of people want to be heroes to the group they identify with, and are willing to die to do so. Our culture is not really so very different in that respect - it honours as heroes people who willingly die achiving some goal our culture considers praiseworthy.

Yeah, and I think being shot while perpetrating a killing spree seems like "going out in a blaze of glory" to the people who undertake them (at least when they decide to start).

The odd part is not that people are willig to die for a cause, but that the "goal considered praiseworthy" is blowing up a bunch of random civilians.

Not so odd when you consider that there are cynical people deliberately telling them that to use them, alas

[Malthus]

Of course, there are significant differences as well.

The most obvious being that a shooting spree is the ultimate act of alienation whereas a suicide attack is an act of belonging.

I don't think the difference is that stark on that count, though I do see where you're coming from.

When it comes to the shooters, they often seem to imagine it's an act of belonging to some home-cooked militant philosophy, whether it's half-baked IRA sympathizers, delusional mens-right-advocates lashing out at feminists, white power types or so on. They're still grasping at belonging as they lash out, though it eludes them.

The suicide bombers, of course, have an available infrastructure to offer them defacto belonging, to coax them, and to use them as actual military assets. But I'd hypothesize that the basic structure of individual alienation leading to embracing some violent philosophy that justifies acting out as a form of belonging is common to both types.

You would enjoy Eric Hoffer's book "The True Believer". An oldie but goodie, I've plugged it before.

http://www.amazon.ca/True-Believer-Thoughts-Nature-Movements/dp/0060505915/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446241970&sr=8-1&keywords=the+true+believer

[DGuller]

It's a shame Raz isn't reading this thread anymore, here is some news that will reinforce his concerns about the dangers of secularists:  http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/31/453404826/bangladeshi-man-who-published-slain-blogger-s-work-is-killed.

[The Brain]

It's a shame Raz isn't reading this thread anymore, here is some news that will reinforce his concerns about the dangers of secularists:  http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/31/453404826/bangladeshi-man-who-published-slain-blogger-s-work-is-killed.

Ethnic bloggers?

[Martinus]

and i'm saying if you removed religion and replaced it with something else, they'd be doing something similar. there's a mentality that celebrates killing yourself for a cause, and through propaganda they've convinced people to do sign on. i see that as having had a far larger impact on convincing people to kill themselves. religion doesn't appear to be a necessary ingredient for any of it.

Now all you have to do is find examples of a movement of non-religious people that uses suicide bombing, and you will have some evidence that your guess has a basis in reality.

Wait, are you actually saying that noone but religiously motivated people use suicide (terrorist) attacks? Because that's patently untrue - from Russian anarchists, to nazis and Japanese soldiers in WW2, to Tamil Tigers, to Kurds. While Chechens are Muslims, it is questionable whether many of their attacks against Russians were also religiously motivated.

[viper37]

do you really believe the (mostly) lack of religious violence in the US exists because the bible says something different? we have "religious fanatics" left and right who, while annoying, do their own thing peacefully. why is this - is christianity an objectively peaceful religion? i think that's a ridiculous notion.

the country has been shaped by and for Chrisitans, the dominant religion.  There is no need to resort to violence, chritian integrists are in a position of power in many places or not to far removed from power that they can't effect any changes, and I believe that was Berkut's motivations.  One crazy spouting crap is one crazy spouting crap.  But many crazies voting for other crazies because they are crazy is a problem.

Most people want to live in a State that conforms to their ideals.  For religious people, those ideals are derived from their sacred texts.  Sometimes, they conform to societal norms, other times they do not.  This is why religion must be kept out of the State at all cost.

[Admiral Yi]

Very easy to argue that kamikaze pilots had a religious aspect to their motivation.