Catalan 'independence declaration' to trigger showdown with Madrid

[jimmy olsen]

All Lettowist sympathizer must be crushed! 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/27/catalan-independence-declaration-puts-region-on-course-for-madrid-showdown

Catalan 'independence declaration' to trigger showdown with Madrid

Non-secessionists condemn resolution calling for 'beginning of a process of the creation of an independent Catalan state'

Stephen Burgen in Barcelona

Tuesday 27 October 2015 20.19 GMT  Last modified on Wednesday 28 October 2015 00.55 GMT 


Catalonia has put itself on a collision course with the Madrid government after the newly elected parliament put forward a resolution calling for "the beginning of a process of the creation of an independent Catalan state in the form of a republic".


Effectively a unilateral declaration of independence, the resolution has already been condemned by the non-secessionist Catalan parties as a coup d'etat.

In Madrid the ruling People's party government and the Socialist opposition both issued statements condemning the move.


The prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, called it a provocation and said: "As long as I am president of a nation of free and equal citizens, justice will prevail over unreason."

He added that the state would not shy away from using "all political and judicial mechanisms in defence of the common good and the sovereignty of Spain as laid down in the constitution".

However, the resolution proposed by the new parliamentary president, Carme Forcadell, states explicitly that "the process of democratic disconnection [from Spain] will not be subject to decisions made by the institutions of the Spanish state and in particular the constitutional court", which she said has been "delegitimised".

Forcadell, the former head of the hardcore secessionist Assemblea Nacional Catalana, was elected leader at the weekend thanks in part to the votes of five Podemos deputies, even though the group has always declared itself to be against secession.

The resolution pledges to "adopt all means necessary to begin this process of democratic, massive, sustained and peaceful disconnection".

Forcadell called for civil disobedience in the face of moves by Madrid to block secession and finished her acceptance speech crying out: "Viva the Catalan republic!"

In last month's regional elections, the pro-secessionist coalition won a majority of seats but failed to secure a majority of the popular vote.

With only 48% voting in favour of secession, the victors then gave the impression that the time was not ripe to break away from Spain. But it appears they have had a change of heart and are impatient with the 52% of Catalan voters who do not share their point of view on national sovereignty.

In an online poll in the Barcelona-based newspaper La Vanguardia on Tuesday, 64% of 1,500 respondents said they did not support the motion to create an independent state.

With a general election due in seven weeks, the move could have enormous and unpredictable repercussions. On the one hand it could work in the beleaguered Rajoy's favour, as he could play the champion of Spanish unity and distract from his weak performance on jobs and the economy.

The anti-austerity Podemos party, and especially its leader Pablo Iglesias, could suffer as its supporters in Catalonia and the rest of Spain may not understand why it has supported Forcadell and the secessionist resolution.

On the other hand, the declaration may serve as a call to arms to the half of Catalan voters who do not favour independence and who could vote massively for non-secessionist candidates in Spain's December elections.

[celedhring]

Some inaccuracies in this article:

1) Podemos hasn't supported this declaration. Only the appointment of Forcadell (which was weird, mind). Also, it's not 100% clear that Podemos candidates voted for her; the vote was secret and Podemos ran in a coalition with other far-left parties, some of which have supported the independence process in the past.
2) The separatists haven't had a change of heart, they always said that a majority of seats was enough. They have been calling for this move since election night.
3) We already had a massive turnout for the election, there won't be more non-secessionists that will magically appear in the general election. What can happen is that the separatists won't care to vote for the Spanish parliament.
4) A Catalan separatist will never hail a Catalan independent state saying "Viva". 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

"With only 48% voting in favour of secession"
-> also incorrect of course since there are pro-independence people in other parties too.

[celedhring]

That's highly suspect. Given that the pro-independence parties presented this election as an ersatz-referendum, if you are pro-independence methinks you would have voted them and not the wishy-washy dudes.

Still, it tramples on everything. With that "majority" you can't even rewrite the Catalan regional statute, yet it's enough to declare independence? What a shitty state we are going to build if we take shortcuts at every corner at the whim of those in power.

If separatists want an independent state what they should do is to work hard to convince the rest of us and achieve the kind of majority you can build these irreversible changes upon.

[Tamas]

I symphatise with the Catalans. They basically finance Spain, while not being Spanish.

[Josquius]

On the one hand an independent catalonia would be cool. On the other hand republics suck.

Overall though the catalans have lost some of my sympathy here. Seems it's not just the Spanish government being unreasonable dicks. A majority voting for a pro independence party in an election  (which they don't even have) would be enough for independence?
That's freaking dumb. What about their other policies?
In the UK the SNP gets plenty of anti independence votes.

[The Larch]

I symphatise with the Catalans. They basically finance Spain, while not being Spanish.

Oh dear... 

[Valmy]

I symphatise with the Catalans. They basically finance Spain, while not being Spanish.

If Catalans are not Spanish then there is no such thing as Spanish.

[celedhring]

Well, "Spain" survived the fact that the Portuguese are not part of it but this whole national identity debate is pretty pointless. Nation states are a lie and hopefully in time they will become a thing of the past.

I speak Catalan and identify with our small little culture, but I don't need a separate state to make that happen. A decent democracy already allows for that, and I have no trouble being Catalan in modern, democratic, Spain.

Spain is a shitty place in many ways, and those should be addressed, but getting the fuck out to build up a shittier state doesn't seem much of a solution to me.

[Duque de Bragança]

I symphatise with the Catalans. They basically finance Spain, while not being Spanish.

If Catalans are not Spanish then there is no such thing as Spanish.

Do you really think that's a problem for separatists?
Spain only took the modern meaning of Iberia minus Portugal (and Gibraltar) in the 18th century in Portuguese, no clues about Castilian. The Bourbon centralist regime certainly advanced or accelerated the process.
Before that Spain/Espanha = Iberia i.e a geographical expression.

PS: don't know about Catalan either

[Razgovory]

I symphatise with the Catalans. They basically finance Spain, while not being Spanish.

Just like the Hungarians in the EU.

[Martim Silva]

Well, "Spain" survived the fact that the Portuguese are not part of it but this whole national identity debate is pretty pointless.

Portugal was never a part of Spain.

The union that lasted between 1580 and 1640 was a Personal Union, with the papers that certified it expressly stating that each country remained separate under the same monarch.

And our independence was against Castille and León, which were not officially Spain at the time (Aragón and Navarra were not even part of the country).

Nation states are a lie and hopefully in time they will become a thing of the past.

I've seen Valmy say this nonsense in other threads and wonder how do you people get so indoctrinated as to actually believe this utter lie.

So, nation states are a lie and will become things of the past, you say?

Let's see...

Is China becoming less Chinese?

No, it is in fact strenghening its homogenity, to the point that the Xinhiang Uighurs are carrying out terrorist attacks because at this rate they will be wiped out of their homeland. Tibetans are also on the way to become non-existant.

Is Japan becoming less Japanese?

No, Japan doesn't even have the legal concept of 'immigration'. And it only took 13 refugees last year.

Is Korea becoming less Korean?

Nope. No significant migration from other countres comes to Korea. Muss less refugees (the odd North Korean, being Korean, do not count. And most of those went to China)

Is India getting less Indian?

India has many ethnicities, but they hark back to the days before its unification. And while it has problems with its Muslim minority, the ethnic makeup of the country is the same that it was when it declared independence, minus the millions of Muslims that went to form Pakistan [and later Bengladesh, created when India invaded East Pakistan in 1971]

Are Islamic countries becoming less Arab/Iranian/Berber/their etnicity?

Of course not. Bar small Lebanon, well known for being in the crossroads between Islam and Christianity (as well as the Egyptian copts, who have been in the county since before the Islamic conquest), none of those countries is experiencing a significant ethnic shift. The Gulf States even recieved zero of the migrants coming out of Syria.

Are subsaharan nations becoming less African?

Not at all. Barring the entry of some skilled europeans after the financial crisis, these countries all remain very much the domain of the tribes that ruled them since independence. They even attack the different africans that try to move there, last year the Mozambicans that lived in South Africa were victims of tons of murderous attacks, even though almost all of those involved are of Bantu stock.


With the exception of Latin America (whose states were not founded on ethnic grounds), virtually no country in the world is at risk of losing its nation-state.

So, the exception are the western white countries. Only there is the fairy tale of "the nation-state is a thing of the past" told. It makes zero sense to people outside them, and the only thing it does is make the locals less able to protect themselves against large influxes of foreign populations.

In the rest of the world, National Identities are not only common, but often the basic pillar of existance for many nations... Cambodia is very proud that it's Khmer, Thailand that is the land of the Thais, Khazaks love their Khazak homeland, and so forth....


In practice, the false mantra of the "end of the nation-state" merely traduces to: "end of white countries".

Nothing else.

[Martim Silva]

(separate because now it's about Catalonia)

While I don't like the idea of Catalonia separating, the catalan constitutionalists are saying the local government has legitimacy to push forward with this because they won legislative elections, and in those what matters is who has the most elected MPs, not votes.

They also note that, since the left coalition where Podemos is was not clear where it stood in the independence issue, in practice this means more people voted for the independence parties than for the clearly anti-independence ones.

(sounds like pushing the envolope to me, but that's their line)

What should happen now is that Madrid will send their resolution (to be voted on Nov.6th) to the Constitutional Court, where it will be struck down.

The catalonians will, of course, ignore this.

The spanish Constitutional Court will then use the new powers it got from the reform of its statute to apply sanctions against Catalonia.

We will need to see what these will be to appreciate their impact, but it's sure that the catalonian government won't accept them.

[Capetan Mihali]

I symphatise with the Catalans. They basically finance Spain, while not being Spanish.

Oh dear... 

I know -- it's obviously the Galicians.

I do think it's an ironic statement in light of Catalunya's legendary anarchist/Marxist/syndicalist heritage (and lefty tendencies through the present).

[Eddie Teach]

Nation states are a lie and hopefully in time they will become a thing of the past.

I've seen Valmy say this nonsense in other threads and wonder how do you people get so indoctrinated as to actually believe this utter lie.

Some people in the West feel guilty over their privileges, so they want to give them away.