US boy, 11, held for shooting dead eight-year-old neighbour

[Barrister]

Okay, so I wouldn't go that far.  This involved a shotgun, not a handgun, and thus has lots of non-murderous uses

Yes...and?

Instead what this story is about is FOR FUCK SAKES PEOPLE KEEP YOUR FIREARMS LOCKED UP!  How does an 11 year old get their hands on a shotgun and ammunition?  Has no one heard of a gun cabinet, or a trigger lock (or even better - both)?

Yes...I am ADD, very absentminded, with have a poor mind for details. And if I have the thing locked up how am I supposed to get to it in the case of self defense anyway? Why would I bring something into my house that could ruin or end the lives of my family without any appreciable advantage to offset it? Insanity? Stupidity?

Keeping a firearm for self-defence is stupid for some of the reasons you just mentioned.  In order to be effective you need it within very easy access, which is precisely what you don't want to do with a firearm.

If you're a hunter or sport-shooter however, there's no reason you can't keep your firearm locked up when not in use.

[The Minsky Moment]

I read somewhere that the US has something like 2.8 times as many firearms per 100,000 people as France, but 49 times as many homicides. Assuming I remember those numbers correctly, why are Americans 17.5 times more murderous than the French?

It's an exponential relationship, not linear.

??

[Grey Fox]

It seems that it applies even to little girls :

Man are afraid women will laught at them. Women are afraid men will murder them.

[Valmy]

Really? If I ever got a woman laughing I was halfway home.

[viper37]

Assuming I remember those numbers correctly, why are Americans 17.5 times more murderous than the French?

Culture, for once.  Movies and television glorify people taking care of their problems, with the law more often than not against them.  the old Far West mentality where you shoot your neighbors to take their cattle and their sons shoot you back for killing their parents.  Europeans and Canadians are more likely to have a certain respect of the law than Americans.

Population.  The USA, that's a bloc of 300 000 000 people living in the same country with diverse conditions of living from one State to another.  France is a relatively monolithic bloc.  You would get a better portrait by analysing Europe as a whole, but then you need to factor in the various wars.  They tend to make the psychos come out and they're either killed or arrested at the end of hostilities.  Also, Europe is not a single country, it's multiple countries with multiple legislations and multiple culture, that again skewes the results.

Mental illness.  As discussed before.  Lack of accessibility to healthcare services.  People don't die due to lack of healthcare, but minor problems tend to go unnoticed, and like many other societies, there's a big taboo on this.  Many people would chat openly about their disease if it's a cancer.  Much less will chat about their episode of depression or schyzophrenia.  Combine this with other factors, it's a recipe for disasted.

Accessbility to guns.  It's not just having a gun. It's having multiple guns for multiple uses.  And no training because it's a God (almost) given right to own a gun.  As I said in the other thread, I don't mind having a handgun for personal protection under certain circumstances.  I don't mind people hunting with their rifles.  But giving access to just about any assault weapon to anyone desiring one is just wrong.  If everyone was mentally healthy and properly trained, yes, maybe.  But just about anyone with no qualification and screening, you got what you got.  Canada may be too strict on gun laws, especially Quebec, but I would not want the US system.

[merithyn]

Well no, by oldest is 5 and just started kindergarten.  His level of maturity is miles different from a 10 or 11 year old.

And I see from the original article the kid is being charged in youth court, which has far, far different punishments than adult court does.

If criminal charges are brought, they should be against the boy's parents, not the boy. He's just too young to understand what he was doing. The cognitive ability to understand cause and affect is so limited at that age when it comes to life and death.

[DGuller]

Is 11 really too young?  I remember when I was 11.  I certainly knew that a death of a human being was a terrible thing, and that people who cause deaths without a damn good reason are very bad people.  Yes, there is still two decades worth of development left, but you're not retarded by that time.

[Duque de Bragança]

Really? If I ever got a woman laughing I was halfway home.

Femme qui rit, femme au lit. 

[merithyn]

Is 11 really too young?  I remember when I was 11.  I certainly knew that a death of a human being was a terrible thing, and that people who cause deaths without a damn good reason are very bad people.  Yes, there is still two decades worth of development left, but you're not retarded by that time.

But there's the whole factor of lack of self-control/understanding/reason/good vs bad - all taking place while in a state of anger. And if you grow up in an environment of abuse or regular volatile situations, that throws it even more out of whack.

There are just too many things that we're putting on kids to understand. "I knew good versus evil when I was 11" just isn't a good enough reason to charge a child with murder, in my opinion.

[DGuller]

Is 11 really too young?  I remember when I was 11.  I certainly knew that a death of a human being was a terrible thing, and that people who cause deaths without a damn good reason are very bad people.  Yes, there is still two decades worth of development left, but you're not retarded by that time.

But there's the whole factor of lack of self-control/understanding/reason/good vs bad - all taking place while in a state of anger. And if you grow up in an environment of abuse or regular volatile situations, that throws it even more out of whack.

There are just too many things that we're putting on kids to understand. "I knew good versus evil when I was 11" just isn't a good enough reason to charge a child with murder, in my opinion.

If I didn't know that you were never an 11 year old boy, I would now know that you were never an 11 year old boy. 

Yes, some things you just don't understand completely at 11, like empathy, self-preservation, or that some uncertain dangers really can materialize even if they haven't yet.  But you're not a vegetable unable to process more than one concept at a time, nor are you unable to appreciate the consequences of a sure thing like pulling the trigger of a gun while aiming it at someone.

[crazy canuck]

The ability to conceive of and understand the consequences of an impulse action like firing a gun are not high in an 11 year old.

Most 11 year olds I have had the pleasure of coaching have had a very good understanding of cause and effect.

[The Brain]

When you're 11 you know full well that you don't fucking shoot people. You've known it for years. I've been 11. The "all kids are retards" line of reasoning is false.

[DGuller]

When you're 11 you know full well that you don't fucking shoot people. You've known it for years. I've been 11. The "all kids are retards" line of reasoning is false.

The Brain, as always, speaks the truth.

[Barrister]

Well no, by oldest is 5 and just started kindergarten.  His level of maturity is miles different from a 10 or 11 year old.

And I see from the original article the kid is being charged in youth court, which has far, far different punishments than adult court does.

If criminal charges are brought, they should be against the boy's parents, not the boy. He's just too young to understand what he was doing. The cognitive ability to understand cause and affect is so limited at that age when it comes to life and death.

I'm okay with charges against the parents.  I see people prosecuted for careless storage all the time.

And I disagree.  kids know that shooting someone can kill, and that killing is bad.  I'll admit they have reduced impulse control at that age, which is why I wouldn't want the kid locked up for life or anything, but I have no problem holding him responsible.

[Ideologue]

Fine, so let's pump him full of killin' drugs.