US boy, 11, held for shooting dead eight-year-old neighbour

[Brazen]

Is there no correlation between homicide rate and say...population? I saw this that suggested at least when looking at municipalities you need to think about the extent to which a crime rate is influence by population of each city. (http://theipti.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/covariance.pdf) And then here we are looking at comparison countries where at best only the UK can be said to have any sort of comparison on pop size.

Not to negate, of course, cultural factors that go into US rates.

Well, it makes sense that the more people are jammed into a space, the more conflicts will arise between them. Isn't a lot of Europe more densely populated than the US though?

I don't think it is that simple. LA has something like half the population of New York, a third more in land area (so significantly lower density) and a higher murder rate.

I suspect there's an element of ghettoisation that plays a part, not just in terms of race but in terms of income and social background, whereas London and New York are more mixed.

[dps]

I think a child like that is then clearly a danger to society.  I think at 11, the worst/most impulsive thing I did was sneak and read the sex columns in my mother's Cosmopolitan's at night.

Yeah, seriously.  If Meri is right, then all of us absolutely need to have guns.  To protect ourselves from all those psycho 11 year old boys running around.

If all 11 year old boys had as poor an understanding of what guns do and of cause and effect, and as little impulse control as some in this thread suggest, then our species would go extinct, 'cause no one would ever survive long enough to produce offspring.

Quit kidding yourselves.  This guy knew exactly what he was doing.  Whether he has poor impulse control or is just that evil, I don't know.  But even if it was just poor impulse control, that doesn't mitigate or excuse his actions, nor does that make him less of a threat to society.  If you don't hold him criminally responsible, the lesson you're teaching him is that he can literally get away with murder.  Note that that doesn't mean you have to try him as an adult, which according to the article they aren't doing anyway.

[Razgovory]

Okay, then let him vote, join the army, buy booze and cigarettes.

[merithyn]

I think a child like that is then clearly a danger to society.  I think at 11, the worst/most impulsive thing I did was sneak and read the sex columns in my mother's Cosmopolitan's at night.

Yeah, seriously.  If Meri is right, then all of us absolutely need to have guns.  To protect ourselves from all those psycho 11 year old boys running around.

If all 11 year old boys had as poor an understanding of what guns do and of cause and effect, and as little impulse control as some in this thread suggest, then our species would go extinct, 'cause no one would ever survive long enough to produce offspring.

Quit kidding yourselves.  This guy knew exactly what he was doing.  Whether he has poor impulse control or is just that evil, I don't know.  But even if it was just poor impulse control, that doesn't mitigate or excuse his actions, nor does that make him less of a threat to society.  If you don't hold him criminally responsible, the lesson you're teaching him is that he can literally get away with murder.  Note that that doesn't mean you have to try him as an adult, which according to the article they aren't doing anyway.

Not every 11 year old has access to a loaded gun. Not every 11 year old is in the situation this kid is.

There is a reason that we have a lot of rules about children. At 11, they're usually not allowed home alone. They can't yet supervise other children, and they rarely have chores that are much different than someone aged 8 or 9. Sixth graders (which is what I assume this kid is) are rarely given much by way of leeway in their schools. They struggle to really grasp the bigger concepts that are at play here. He's barely into the time of understanding abstract thinking, and may not yet be able to do so.

At 11, there is a chance that they can be taught compassion and consequences, if he doesn't yet have them. He's not going to learn either in jail. There's hope that he will grow up and make himself a fully functioning contributing adult. This is not a hardened criminal. This is a boy who made a horrible mistake.

Sure, he may be a sociopath, but it's incredibly unlikely that he's anymore so than any other 11 year old, of whom a vast majority at that age show as such.

LINK

Recent research suggests that sociopathic traits – for those who display them – are fairly constant over the course of the critical adolescent years. Salihovic and colleagues (2013), for example, followed 1,068 youths in the seventh to ninth grades over a period of four years. Psychopathic traits were measured with the Youth Psychopathic Traits Inventory, a self-report measure created to capture psychopathic traits in youths 12 years and older. As predicted, most of the adolescents in the study had low to moderate levels of psychopathic traits that continued to diminish with age. For a small group of youths, however, these characteristics remained high and stable over the course of the study period.

[DGuller]

There is a reason that we have a lot of rules about children. At 11, they're usually not allowed home alone.

I hope you realize that's true only in US.  I was starting to go to and from school by myself starting at 7, and that was the rule rather than the exception.  And when I got home, I was alone or with a sister 3 years older than me for a number of hours.  My understanding is that it's not that different in Europe either.

[dps]

There is a reason that we have a lot of rules about children. At 11, they're usually not allowed home alone. They can't yet supervise other children, and they rarely have chores that are much different than someone aged 8 or 9. Sixth graders (which is what I assume this kid is) are rarely given much by way of leeway in their schools. They struggle to really grasp the bigger concepts that are at play here. He's barely into the time of understanding abstract thinking, and may not yet be able to do so.

I never know whether to laugh or cry about the way most people view children nowdays.

At 11, there is a chance that they can be taught compassion and consequences, if he doesn't yet have them. He's not going to learn either in jail. There's hope that he will grow up and make himself a fully functioning contributing adult. This is not a hardened criminal. This is a boy who made a horrible mistake.

OK, I'll admit I was ranting a bit in my previous post, and while I do honestly disagree with the attitude expressed in the first paragraph of yours I quoted (just to be clear, I do agree that what you posted is the prevailing attitude, it's just an attitude I don't agree with), I pretty much agree with this next paragraph.  However, I'm not clear how not holding him accountable will do anything to teach him about consequences.

EDIT:  'cause he posted this while I was typing:

I hope you realize that's true only in US.  I was starting to go to and from school by myself starting at 7, and that was the rule rather than the exception.  And when I got home, I was alone or with a sister 3 years older than me for a number of hours.  My understanding is that it's not that different in Europe either.

It's a fairly recent development here, too, for the most part.  Starting in 1st grade, I walked to school and back by myself, and I was sometimes left at home by myself for short times starting at that point as well, and yes, that was pretty much the norm and not the except (well, except that most kids I went to grade school with rode the bus. I didn't because the school buses didn't even stop in the neighborhoods as close to the school as mine.  But those kids who did ride the bus walked to the bus stop by themselves--the buses didn't stop in front of every kid's house like they do now.  On average, I'd guess that most kids walked about 1/2 to 3/4 a mile to a bus stop).

[MadImmortalMan]

At 7 I was spending all day long outside with no adult supervision. The rule was to come home when the streetlights came on.

[crazy canuck]

Meri, I think you are significantly underestimating the ability of that age group.

I coached little league with kids from kindergarten (tee ball with all the players on one team in the field and no outs - everyone bats) all the way up to 11 and 12 year olds who compete to go to the little league world series.  You may recall that my youngest son's team was just a game away from winning the Canadian National Championship when he was 11.

Its pretty easy to teach kids even in Kindergarten about the proper use of a bat so that they don't throw it or swing it at other kids.  By the time they get to ages 11 and 12 they certainly understand basic concepts like cause and effect and have understood that for some time.  It is nonsense to suggest they don't understand complex issues or make good judgments.  We were teaching them how to turn double plays, base running strategies, hitting and pitching strategies etc well before they got to age 11.  In school they were already starting to do algebra problems.  So much for the lack of abstract thought...

[DGuller]

I never know whether to laugh or cry about the way most people view children nowdays.

I think it's the culture of fear.  The media is much more interested in reporting about the kidnapping of one child by a stranger than about millions of children that went home alone safe and a little bit more independent.

[dps]

I never know whether to laugh or cry about the way most people view children nowdays.

I think it's the culture of fear.  The media is much more interested in reporting about the kidnapping of one child by a stranger than about millions of children that went home alone safe and a little bit more independent.

Oh, there's no doubt that a lot of the changes in attitude in the past 25-30 years have been driven by the media. 

[Malthus]

I never know whether to laugh or cry about the way most people view children nowdays.

I think it's the culture of fear.  The media is much more interested in reporting about the kidnapping of one child by a stranger than about millions of children that went home alone safe and a little bit more independent.

Oh, there's no doubt that a lot of the changes in attitude in the past 25-30 years have been driven by the media.

I think it is being driven by a bunch of factors. A major one I think is a lower birth rate. When you have 4 kids, you simply can't schedule them the same way as you can if you have 1. People are on average having children later in life, and so have more cash - again, leading to more scheduling. With more scheduling comes less free time and more supervision. Then, people are more concerned about safety *generally* - not just about kids. Helmets, seat-belts, cigarettes - attitudes towards all of these have changed.

[Valmy]

I am more terrified about having CPS called on my ass than the 0.00001% chance of anything happening to my kids. Leaving them in the car just a minute or two to get something from the store real fast, nothing my mom wouldn't do, always gives me that nervous feeling some busybody is going to report me to the authorities before I can get back to the car.

When I was a kid I walked to school and back and that was not a short walk (when I missed the bus). I don't know if I would have the balls to let my kids do that. I can see the cops coming to my house now. 'You left your 17 year old son unsupervised for 10 minutes? Society has ways of dealing with neglectful parents like you sir.'

[Malthus]

I am more terrified about having CPS called on my ass than the 0.00001% chance of anything happening to my kids. Leaving them in the car just a minute or two to get something from the store real fast, nothing my mom wouldn't do, always gives me that nervous feeling some busybody is going to report me to the authorities before I can get back to the car.

When I was a kid I walked to school and back and that was not a short walk (when I missed the bus). I don't know if I would have the balls to let my kids do that. I can see the cops coming to my house now. 'You left your 17 year old son unsupervised for 10 minutes? Society has ways of dealing with neglectful parents like you sir.'

Well, there is some of that. I can't say I ever thought of that possibility much.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, I walked to and from school and back for lunch by myself from kindergarten on.  I even played hookey for the first time in Kindergarten (the evils of giving a child freedom).  And I certainly knew what I was doing was wrong.  I just didn't fully appreciate how easy it would be to get caught.    Good learning experience.

[MadImmortalMan]

I am more terrified about having CPS called on my ass than the 0.00001% chance of anything happening to my kids.

Mrs. Kravitz has ruined more lives than you realize.