US boy, 11, held for shooting dead eight-year-old neighbour

[DGuller]

That's just so.. bizarre.

Is it a societal thing that we don't really respect life anymore? I mean, I can't even imagine making someone lose their job (I'd feel like absolute crap if I caused something like that to happen), much less their life.

But then, is it any different now than it was in the Golden Years, and we're just hearing more about it now?

Murder rates are down, so if it's different from the golden years, it's in a good way.  Let's not get over-dramatic over anecdotal evidence like a bunch of Yahoo! comment posters lamenting about life not being worth anything anymore when some gruesome story makes the news.

[merithyn]

I suppose. There have, of course, always been people who didn't value life. Like I said, it's just such a bizarre thing to me.

[Tonitrus]

If there are some men who just want to watch the world burn, it follows that there are kids who want to do so as well.

[Ideologue]

One of the most memorable cases I've ever been involved in was the 16 year old girl who murdered mom's boyfriend.  No prior record, no history of abuse by the BF... she just got frustrated with him and stabbed him to death.  Afterwards she was a perfect student, very little chance of recidivism (because the guy she hated was now dead).

Anyways... long story, one of those cases where there's no really satisfactory outcome on any end.  And it really opened my eyes on youth homicides.

That's just so.. bizarre.

Is it a societal thing that we don't really respect life anymore? I mean, I can't even imagine making someone lose their job (I'd feel like absolute crap if I caused something like that to happen), much less their life.

But then, is it any different now than it was in the Golden Years, and we're just hearing more about it now?

I humbly suggest we "respect life" a lot more than at any period in human history.  We don't have the remotest grasp on the utility of life, and we still don't know how to organize society along the lines of basic decency, but at least we're a long, long way off from the atavism that, despite the occasional objection, more or less defined human existence until about 1945.

[Barrister]

One of the most memorable cases I've ever been involved in was the 16 year old girl who murdered mom's boyfriend.  No prior record, no history of abuse by the BF... she just got frustrated with him and stabbed him to death.  Afterwards she was a perfect student, very little chance of recidivism (because the guy she hated was now dead).

Anyways... long story, one of those cases where there's no really satisfactory outcome on any end.  And it really opened my eyes on youth homicides.

That's just so.. bizarre.

Is it a societal thing that we don't really respect life anymore? I mean, I can't even imagine making someone lose their job (I'd feel like absolute crap if I caused something like that to happen), much less their life.

But then, is it any different now than it was in the Golden Years, and we're just hearing more about it now?

I don't think it's anything societal.  It just goes to the undeveloped youth brain.  Like I mentioned with this young girl she'd never gotten in trouble with the law before, and her chance of getting in trouble with the law again seemed minimal.  She did, however, murder a man in fairly cold blood.  She was remorseful, but a lot of that remorse was also tied up in how this murder affected herself.

Anyways - as hard as adult crime can be to understand, youth crime is absolutely unfathomable.

[jimmy olsen]

One of the most memorable cases I've ever been involved in was the 16 year old girl who murdered mom's boyfriend.  No prior record, no history of abuse by the BF... she just got frustrated with him and stabbed him to death.  Afterwards she was a perfect student, very little chance of recidivism (because the guy she hated was now dead).

Anyways... long story, one of those cases where there's no really satisfactory outcome on any end.  And it really opened my eyes on youth homicides.

That's just so.. bizarre.

Is it a societal thing that we don't really respect life anymore? I mean, I can't even imagine making someone lose their job (I'd feel like absolute crap if I caused something like that to happen), much less their life.

But then, is it any different now than it was in the Golden Years, and we're just hearing more about it now?

I humbly suggest we "respect life" a lot more than at any period in human history.  We don't have the remotest grasp on the utility of life, and we still don't know how to organize society along the lines of basic decency, but at least we're a long, long way off from the atavism that, despite the occasional objection, more or less defined human existence until about 1945.

While I agree with this statement, I do find it ironic it is being made by Mr. Total War via Strategic Bombing is the Only Way to Go.

[HVC]

24 hour news cycle makes everything seem worse

[Razgovory]

That is the implication to the arguments that he knew what he was doing.

Nope.

Yep.  A person must understand a crime to be punished for it.  Arguing that an 11 year old knows just as well as an adult year old that murder is wrong is arguing that the 11 year old had Mens Rea and thus should be punished in the same way as an adult.

[Eddie Teach]

Yep.  A person must understand a crime to be punished for it.  Arguing that an 11 year old knows just as well as an adult year old that murder is wrong is arguing that the 11 year old had Mens Rea and thus should be punished in the same way as an adult.

Again, who is making this claim?

[crazy canuck]

I think you are conflating two different concepts.  Did he know that shooting the girl could kill her.  I haven't seen anything to suggest he didn't understand that.  Your real point seems to be whether he appreciated that act in the same way an adult would.  I don't see anyone suggesting that is true.  That is why this kid is not being tried as an adult.

If you don't understand what "kill" actually means - in real terms - then knowing that he'll kill her isn't the question. Don't you have to understand what the end result will mean in order to be held accountable?

An 11 year old doesn't know what kill means?

[Razgovory]

Yep.  A person must understand a crime to be punished for it.  Arguing that an 11 year old knows just as well as an adult year old that murder is wrong is arguing that the 11 year old had Mens Rea and thus should be punished in the same way as an adult.

Again, who is making this claim?

It's a natural assumption from statements like "I knew it was wrong to kill at 11".  Presumably that knowledge stays with you at 18, you don't find out that killing got more wrong.  Hell, at that age you can legally join organizations that train you to kill people and tell you that it is much less wrong to kill people if you have permission first.

[Eddie Teach]

Ok, since you apparently don't think the 11 year old knew it was wrong at all, would you say he shouldn't be punished at all?

[dps]

Yep.  A person must understand a crime to be punished for it.  Arguing that an 11 year old knows just as well as an adult year old that murder is wrong is arguing that the 11 year old had Mens Rea and thus should be punished in the same way as an adult.

Again, who is making this claim?

It's a natural assumption from statements like "I knew it was wrong to kill at 11".  Presumably that knowledge stays with you at 18, you don't find out that killing got more wrong.  Hell, at that age you can legally join organizations that train you to kill people and tell you that it is much less wrong to kill people if you have permission first.

Knowing that murder is wrong at age 11 doesn't mean that there isn't other knowledge you might acquire by age 18 that you don't have at 11.

[garbon]

One of the most memorable cases I've ever been involved in was the 16 year old girl who murdered mom's boyfriend.  No prior record, no history of abuse by the BF... she just got frustrated with him and stabbed him to death.  Afterwards she was a perfect student, very little chance of recidivism (because the guy she hated was now dead).

Anyways... long story, one of those cases where there's no really satisfactory outcome on any end.  And it really opened my eyes on youth homicides.

That's just so.. bizarre.

Is it a societal thing that we don't really respect life anymore? I mean, I can't even imagine making someone lose their job (I'd feel like absolute crap if I caused something like that to happen), much less their life.

But then, is it any different now than it was in the Golden Years, and we're just hearing more about it now?

I don't think it's anything societal.  It just goes to the undeveloped youth brain.  Like I mentioned with this young girl she'd never gotten in trouble with the law before, and her chance of getting in trouble with the law again seemed minimal.  She did, however, murder a man in fairly cold blood.  She was remorseful, but a lot of that remorse was also tied up in how this murder affected herself.

Anyways - as hard as adult crime can be to understand, youth crime is absolutely unfathomable.

Really? From your anecdote, sounds like just needs to hate someone again and then would be open to killing.

[Razgovory]

Yep.  A person must understand a crime to be punished for it.  Arguing that an 11 year old knows just as well as an adult year old that murder is wrong is arguing that the 11 year old had Mens Rea and thus should be punished in the same way as an adult.

Again, who is making this claim?

It's a natural assumption from statements like "I knew it was wrong to kill at 11".  Presumably that knowledge stays with you at 18, you don't find out that killing got more wrong.  Hell, at that age you can legally join organizations that train you to kill people and tell you that it is much less wrong to kill people if you have permission first.

Knowing that murder is wrong at age 11 doesn't mean that there isn't other knowledge you might acquire by age 18 that you don't have at 11.

What additional knowledge is required for mens rea?