sub-Roman Britain, the Romano-British, and the Welsh

[Caliga]

One of the eras of history I am most fascinated with is that of sub-Roman Britain, or Britain after the Roman legions departed and the Romano-British "left-behinds" were forced to fend for themselves.  I was reading an article on this period of history the other day that stated that Gwynedd can make a claim for the last unconquered portion of the Roman Empire in that it did not 'finally' fall until 1283 when the conquest of Wales was completed.

I thought this was a strange claim to make because I had always believed that Wales was never considered to be fully conquered by the Romans and was a sort of frontier march secondary to the one at Hadrian's Wall.  Apparently it turns out that for at least a few centuries after the departure of the legions that the leading families of Wales continued to trace their lineage back to Roman patrician families, utilized Latin as their primary written language, and so forth.

So is it true that Wales was the last vestige of the Western Roman Empire?

As an aside, as I was thinking about this I wondered if there were actually any known ruins of Roman villas in Wales, and surprisingly (to me) it turns out that there are, although almost all of them are along the south coast of Wales, according to Wikipedia (sorry grumbler  ).  I was suprised to learn that there were any ruins of Roman villas in Wales at all.

[Valmy]

Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province. The Roman-ness of Britannia took many generations to fade away as I see it.

And Welsh is heavily influenced by Latin vocabulary-wise.

[Jaron]

Were there any molemen or dwarves in sub-Roman Britain? Did they ever battle the surface dwellers?

[Caliga]

Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province.

And Welsh is heavily influenced by Latin vocabulary-wise.

See I had always thought that the Welsh were, for lack of a better term, 'pure' Brythonic people who were basically unconquered and unassimilated.  But if what I read was true, then that clearly isn't the case, unless the Welsh totally fabricated their ancestry claims (which I guess is also possible).

[The Brain]

I've been to Caerleon!

[Caliga]

Were there any molemen or dwarves in sub-Roman Britain? Did they ever battle the surface dwellers?

Sadly the historical record is sort of lacking, so it's possible there were molemen and dwarves but we'll probably never know if they battled the surface dwellers and if so how those battles went. 

[Valmy]

See I had always thought that the Welsh were, for lack of a better term, 'pure' Brythonic people who were basically unconquered and unassimilated.  But if what I read was true, then that clearly isn't the case, unless the Welsh totally fabricated their ancestry claims (which I guess is also possible).

I don't know the details but the English claimed the same damn thing about being descended from pure Germanic stock that 100% ethnically cleansed the Britons out of England, and thus unconquered and mighty (except by the Normans and Vikings who were also 100% Germanically pure) and well LOL.

[The Minsky Moment]

Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province. The Roman-ness of Britannia took many generations to fade away as I see it.

Material culture declined very quickly.  Hard to say much more, given the lack of historical evidence, although the lack in itself is suggestive.  Gildas appears to have had a classical education, but his book is thematically Christian, not classical.  I doubt he was typical for his time.  I agree with you that Britain was not less Roman than other provinces, but disagree it took generations to fade away.  By the time of Gilda, Roman culture was likely a very thin veneer.

[Malthus]

Much depends on what one counts as "Roman" cultural traits. If using Latin makes one "Roman", the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. 

[Valmy]

Much depends on what one counts as "Roman" cultural traits. If using Latin makes one "Roman", the last remaint of Rome in the West is ... the "Roman" Catholic Church. 

Well I would say in this era the Christian community and the Roman Empire were very much intertwined. Indeed the ideology of the Late Empire was that those were the same thing.

[Syt]

utilized Latin as their primary written language

Not much of a surprise. Have you looked at Welsh?

[grumbler]

... it turns out that there are, although almost all of them are along the south coast of Wales, according to Wikipedia (sorry grumbler  ). 

Dunno why you are apologizing.  This is a perfectly valid use of Wikipedia information.  Misuse comes when you use Wikipedia information to support an argument.  Wiki article writers are not authorities and are often incompetent, biased, or both.

[dps]

Actually I hear that a lot, that somehow Britain was less Roman than other provinces but I don't think that is true. After all Gildas was very Roman in his outlook, and had clearly been educated in the Roman style, and he was writing over 100 years after Britannia ceased to be an Imperial province. The Roman-ness of Britannia took many generations to fade away as I see it.

Material culture declined very quickly.  Hard to say much more, given the lack of historical evidence, although the lack in itself is suggestive.  Gildas appears to have had a classical education, but his book is thematically Christian, not classical.  I doubt he was typical for his time.  I agree with you that Britain was not less Roman than other provinces, but disagree it took generations to fade away.  By the time of Gilda, Roman culture was likely a very thin veneer.

From my understanding, there's questions about how thoroughly Romanized all of the provinces outside of Italy were, and how long pre-Roman culture survived after the Roman conquest.  I think the perception that Britain was less Romanized than the continental parts of the Empire in the West comes from the fact that Celtic languages survived even until the fall of the Western Empire there, whereas they apparently didn't on the continent (Breton is a Celtic language, but introduced to the continent by settlers from Wales after the fall of the Western Empire).  OTOH, while language and culture are somewhat related, they aren't the same thing, and while not a Celtic language, Basque survived.

[Caliga]

I thought Gaulish had survived in France until even after the Frankish conquest?  I think I remember reading something about that when I read Martin of Tours in college, some passage about how there were still some weird people speaking Gaulish in hick parts of France.

[Caliga]

Dunno why you are apologizing.  This is a perfectly valid use of Wikipedia information.  Misuse comes when you use Wikipedia information to support an argument.  Wiki article writers are not authorities and are often incompetent, biased, or both.

It was more of a grumbler nod/reference than a bonafide apology.