Russian boots on the ground in Syria, fighting for Assad

[The Minsky Moment]

The argument being made is not that there should be/have been a "massive intervention". The argument being made is that Obama should have done...something.

And that's about the high point of the level of specificity it reaches, except for the part about "destroying helicopters."

For a piece bashing empty rhetoric, it sure does a good job of providing a shining example.

[Berkut]

The argument being made is not that there should be/have been a "massive intervention". The argument being made is that Obama should have done...something.

And that's about the high point of the level of specificity it reaches, except for the part about "destroying helicopters."

For a piece bashing empty rhetoric, it sure does a good job of providing a shining example.

A very fair critique of the piece.

It is trivial to call for action. Pretty fucking hard to come up with action that might actually work.

[Razgovory]

You know, if we elect Trump he can semi-solve this problem.  He can make the Syrians build a wall around their own country.  The required labor will keep the people there busy, and the ones not working on the wall will be cut off from the rest of the World.

[citizen k]

The Largest Failure of the Obama Era

LOL. Yes history clearly shows we should have intervened massively in Syria. What a great idea that would have been. Then instead of one dead kid on a beach we would be personally responsible for thousands we blew up ourselves...and the situation would be no better.

What a silly sad comment. 

[Valmy]

What a silly sad comment. 

What could we possibly have done here? There are two options: back Assad or back the rebels. Either way we are directly responsible for what they do in their victory. Or at least that seems to be how it goes.

Why is that silly and sad? That is exactly what we have going on in Libya. We would be responsible for the outcome.

I am wiling to be convinced. What would be a non-silly and non-sad way to handle it?

I thought Minsky said it very well. Now I would like to see much more active role in taking care of the refugees but in the actual conflict? It is not our fight.

[jimmy olsen]

The argument being made is not that there should be/have been a "massive intervention". The argument being made is that Obama should have done...something.

And that's about the high point of the level of specificity it reaches, except for the part about "destroying helicopters."

For a piece bashing empty rhetoric, it sure does a good job of providing a shining example.

Taking out Assad's air force could be done without that much risk to American forces.

[Tonitrus]

Why would we do that when ISIS is doing it for us?

[Maximus]

I thought the idea was to not hand everything to ISIS on a platter.

[Razgovory]

I see use in further weakening Assad.

[Tonitrus]

So ISIS can take over the rest of Syria?  Not sure that's a great idea.

[Razgovory]

I forgot to put the negative in that sentence.  It should have read "I see no use in further weakening Assad."  Assad is not a nice man, and his is not a nice government, but he isn't setting up slave markets.  He was once our ally.  I doubt he will be again, but don't need to antagonize him anymore.


Are all Arab societies like Iraq, Libya and Syria?  As soon as the government falls they immediately try to eat one another?

[Tonitrus]

I think that goes for most human societies.

[jimmy olsen]

Looks like this is really happening. I wonder how many troops and how many war crimes they would have to commit to win the war for Assad? 

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-no-secret-military-specialists-syria-112828419.html

Russia said to get Iran's clearance for Syria-bound flights


Associated Press
By LYNN BERRY and VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV
5 hours ago

MOSCOW (AP) — Iran has granted permission for Russian planes to fly over its territory en route to Syria, Russian news agencies said Wednesday, a bypass needed after Bulgaria refused overflights amid signs of a Russian military buildup in Syria that has concerned the U.S. and NATO.

The news agencies quoted Maxim Suslov, spokesman for the Russian Embassy in Tehran, as saying it has received Iranian permission for Syria-bound flights. After Bulgaria rejected Moscow's overflight request for Sept. 1-24, a path via Iran and Iraq appeared to be the only one left, as Russia apparently sought to avoid flying over Turkey, which in 2012 grounded a Syria-bound plane carrying radar parts from Moscow.

There was no immediate confirmation from Iran.

The controversy over the Russian flights comes amid signs of increased Russian military presence in Syria. Moscow, which has backed Syrian President Bashar Assad throughout the nation's 4½-year civil war, said its military experts are in the country to train its military to use Russian weapons.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova accused the West of creating "strange hysteria" over Russian activities in Syria, saying that Moscow has been openly supplying weapons and sending military specialists there for a long time.

"Russia has never made a secret of its military-technical cooperation with Syria," she said, adding she could "confirm and repeat once again that Russian military specialists are in Syria to help them master the weapons being supplied."

President Vladimir Putin and other Russian officials have sought to cast arms supplies to Assad's regime as part of international efforts to combat the Islamic State group and other militant organizations in Syria.

Putin hasn't ruled out a bigger role. Asked Friday if Russia could deploy its troops to Syria to help fight IS, he said "we are looking at various options."

By playing with the idea of joining the U.S.-led coalition fighting IS, Putin may hope to reset ties with the West, which have been shattered by the Ukrainian crisis, and also protect Moscow's influence in Syria, where it has a navy base. But the U.S. and its allies have seen Assad as the cause of the Syrian crisis, and Washington has warned Moscow against beefing up its presence.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry spoke to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Wednesday for a second time in five days. U.S. State Department spokesman John Kirby said Kerry "reiterated our concern about these reports of Russia military buildup," adding if they are true, it could lead "lead to greater violence and even more instability" in Syria.

Indicating a continuing rift, the Russian Foreign Ministry said that Lavrov on the call emphasized Syrian government troops' role in confronting extremist groups and the need to take consolidated action.

On Wednesday, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg also said the alliance is concerned about reports about Russia's increased military presence in Syria. He didn't offer details.

A U.S. defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to publicly discuss the issue, said the U.S. has seen the Russians fly a variety of military assets into the airfield south of the Syrian city of Latakia, including troops capable of protecting Russian forces there and modular housing units. He said it indicated that the Russians are preparing for some sort of air operations. The official said he was unaware of any evidence that Russian forces have conducted any offensive military operations in Syria.

Another U.S. official briefed on the latest intelligence declined to confirm or deny whether Russian troops have participated in military operations in Syria. However, he said, U.S. intelligence agencies have assessed that Russia's deployment of military personnel and weapons to Syria reflect growing concern about Assad's ability to weather opposition gains — and it suggests that Moscow may be willing to intervene directly on Assad's behalf.

Russia's military involvement raises a number of concerns, the U.S. official said, especially because it does not appear to be coordinated with the other countries operating in the area. It is not clear what Russia intends to actually do, he said.

One Lebanese politician said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue that some Russian forces already have taken part in some small-scale operations in Syria, possibly paving way for broader military action against IS, including airstrikes, in the future. He provided no details, and other Lebanese politicians contested the claim, saying the Russians haven't joined the fray yet.

Another Lebanese politician familiar with the issue, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't in a position to publicly discuss the subject, said there are Russian experts and, possibly, pilots, in Syria, but no full-fledged fighting force yet.

"There are experts and there are also crews for advanced equipment," he said. "They have no fighting forces on the ground."

"Russia is a partner in the war," the politician added. "Russia from the beginning told several officials, including Lebanese, that defending Damascus is like defending Moscow. It will do what is needed."

Hisham Jaber, a retired Lebanese army general familiar with the Syrian military, also said Russian military experts have been in Syria for a long time.

"Every time Syria gets new weapons, Russian experts come to train them (Syrians) on these weapons," Jaber said. "Because of current situation in Syria, these experts need protection and special forces are in Syria to protect advanced weapons and to protect the Russian experts who train Syrians. There are plans to build a military air base in the coastal town of Jable."

Jaber said the Syrian coast is a "red line for the regime and the Russians," and it's threatened now after the fall of the northwestern town of Jisr al-Shughour earlier this year into the hands of al-Qaida fighters and their allies. Over the past weeks, militants have shelled the coastal city of Latakia. Jisr al-Shughour is only 50 kilometers (30 miles) away.

"The Russians will not allow the fall of the Syrian coast because of the naval base and the planned air base," Jaber said.

"Until this moment, there are no Russian forces fighting on the ground," he added. "There are experts everywhere, who sometimes give advice in operations rooms to Syrian forces."

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov criticized Washington for refusing to cooperate with the Syrian government in the fight against the IS.

"The basis for action of the U.S.-led anti-IS coalition is flawed, because it should at the very least involve cooperation with the countries on whose turf this battle is being fought," he said, according to Russian news agencies. "When our American colleagues manage to understand that there are global problems that can't be solved without Russia, we will be able to cooperate."

__

AP National Security Writer Robert Burns, AP Diplomatic Writer Matthew Lee and AP Intelligence Writer Ken Dilanian in Washington, Zeina Karam and Bassem Mroue in Beirut, Elena Becatoros in Athens and Karel Janicek in Prague contributed to this report.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/09/us-mideast-crisis-syria-exclusive-idUSKCN0R91H720150909

Exclusive: Russian troops join combat in Syria - sources

MOSCOW/BEIRUT/WASHINGTON  |  By Gabriela Baczynska, Tom Perry, Laila Bassam and Phil Stewart


Russian forces have begun participating in military operations in Syria in support of government troops, three Lebanese sources familiar with the political and military situation there said on Wednesday.

The sources, speaking to Reuters on condition they not be identified, gave the most forthright account yet from the region of what the United States fears is a deepening Russian military role in Syria's civil war, though one of the Lebanese sources said the number of Russians involved so far was small.

U.S. officials said Russia sent two tank landing ships and additional cargo aircraft to Syria in the past day or so and deployed a small number of naval infantry forces.

The U.S. officials, who also spoke on condition of anonymity, said the intent of Russia's military moves in Syria was unclear. One suggested the focus may be on preparing an airfield near the port city of Latakia, a stronghold of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

U.S. officials have not ruled out the possibility that Russia may want to use the airfield for air combat missions.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry spoke to his Russian counterpart for the second time in four days to express concern over reports of Russian military activities in Syria, warning that it could fan more violence.

The White House said it was closely monitoring the situation.

Russia says the Syrian government must be incorporated into a shared global fight against Islamic State, the Islamist group that has taken over large parts of Syria and Iraq. The United States and Assad's regional foes see him as part of the problem.

"We would welcome constructive Russian contributions to the counter-ISIL effort, but we've been clear that it would be unconscionable for any party, including the Russians, to provide any support to the Assad regime," White House spokesman Eric Schultz said, using an acronym for Islamic State.


SYRIAN TROOPS PULLING BACK

Assad's forces have faced big setbacks on the battlefield in a four-year-old multi-sided civil war that has killed 250,000 people and driven half of Syria's 23 million people from their homes.

Syrian troops pulled out of a major air base last Wednesday, and a monitoring group said this meant government soldiers were no longer present at all in Idlib province, most of which slipped from government control earlier this year.

Moscow confirmed it had "experts" on the ground in Syria, its long-time ally in the Middle East.

But Russia has declined to comment on the scale and scope of its military presence. Damascus denied Russians were involved in combat, but a Syrian official said the presence of experts had increased in the past year.

Reflecting Western concern, Germany's foreign minister warned Russia against increased military intervention, saying the Iran nuclear deal and new U.N. initiatives offered a starting point for a political solution to the conflict.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said reports of growing Russian military activity in Syria were a cause for concern, while France said it made finding a political solution to the crisis more complicated.

Two of the Lebanese sources said the Russians were establishing two bases in Syria, one near the coast and one further inland which would be an operations base.

"The Russians are no longer just advisors," one of the sources said. "The Russians have decided to join the war against terrorism."


RUSSIAN NAVAL BASE

Moscow's only naval base in the Mediterranean is at Tartous on the Syrian coast in territory held by Assad, and keeping it secure would be an important strategic objective for the Kremlin.

Another of the Lebanese sources said that so far any Russian combat role was still small: "They have started in small numbers, but the bigger force did not yet take part ... There are numbers of Russians taking part in Syria but they did not yet join the fight against terrorism strongly."

The Syrian official said: "Russian experts are always present but in the last year they have been present to a greater degree."

Officials in the United States, which is fighting an air war against the Islamist militant group Islamic State in Syria and also opposes Assad's government, have said in recent days that they suspect Russia is reinforcing to aid Assad.

Washington has put pressure on countries nearby to deny their air space to Russian flights, a move Moscow denounced on Wednesday as "international boorishness".

Russia has set out the case for supporting Assad in the most forthright terms yet in the past few days, likening the Western approach to Syria to failures in Iraq and Libya.

Part of the diplomatic quarrel has centered around use of air space for flights, which Moscow says bring humanitarian aid but U.S. officials say may be bringing military supplies.

U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters on Wednesday that multiple Russian flights have passed over the airspace of Iran and Iraq to reach Syria.


RUSSIAN OVERFLIGHTS

The State Department said Russian use of Iranian airspace would not be surprising, given Tehran's past support for Assad.

Spokesman John Kirby said the United States had advised "partners and our friends to ask the Russians tough questions about" overflight requests. He did not elaborate, saying only: "I'm not gonna detail diplomatic conversations."

To avoid flying over Turkey, one of Assad's main enemies, Russia has sought to fly planes over Balkan states, but Washington has urged them to deny Moscow permission.

On Tuesday, Bulgaria refused a Russian request to use its airspace citing doubts about the cargo on board. It said on Wednesday it would allow Russian supply flights to Syria to use its airspace only if Moscow agreed to checks of their cargo at a Bulgarian airport.

Turkey has not officially confirmed a ban on Russian flights to Syria but says it considers any requests to fly over its air space to Syria on a case by case basis.

Thus far in the war, Iran and its Lebanese ally Hezbollah have been Assad's main sources of military support. The momentum turned against Assad earlier this year.

In the latest setback, state television reported government troops had surrendered an air base in northwestern Syria to a rebel alliance after nearly two years under siege.

This meant the last government troops had withdrawn from central Idlib province, according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based group that monitors the conflict.


(Additional reporting by Suleiman al-Khalidi in Amman; Mark Hosenball and Lesley Wroughton in Washington; Writing by Tom Perry, Sylvia Westall, Peter Graff and Phil Stewart; Editing by Giles Elgood, David Storey, Grant McCool)

[Valmy]

I think that goes for most human societies.

I wouldn't eat you Toni, too skinny.

[Jaron]

Have you ever played a game of EU and invested in all the land techs, and built conscription centers and nice forts and had a strong army under a great leader and, without any justification, just declared war to play with your army men? I think that is what Putin has done, except he is in eastern tech group so all his crap sucks and is rusty.