Greek Referendum Poll

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The problem taking appropriate fiscal measures in boom times is, of course, it is much more profitable to do nothing and take credit for the wonderful economy than become the bad guy for raising taxes and cutting benefits to pay down debt.

I guess Wolfgang Schäuble is in the enviable position that austerity is actually a rather popular policy in Germany.

No it's not. I pay enough taxes already! 

come to Belgium, and you'll be glad with your Original taxrate :p

[Admiral Yi]

When the population is taking too much debt, people and companies are eventually starting to go bust, so people are thrown out of their homes, they have their assets seized, lose their jobs in failed companies etc. Surely, you see how stuff like that creates a need for a country to step in with its own money, right?

And that does not even address the fact that when it comes to people employed by the state, there is a growing pressure on the state as the employer to increase their pay, so they may afford more stuff.

I still don't understand what you're talking about.  What to you mean by "step in with its own money?"

[MadImmortalMan]

I think he's suggesting the state should pay off citizens' household debt?

[Admiral Yi]

I think he's suggesting the state should pay off citizens' household debt?

He's talking about something that already happened.

[Martinus]

When the population is taking too much debt, people and companies are eventually starting to go bust, so people are thrown out of their homes, they have their assets seized, lose their jobs in failed companies etc. Surely, you see how stuff like that creates a need for a country to step in with its own money, right?

And that does not even address the fact that when it comes to people employed by the state, there is a growing pressure on the state as the employer to increase their pay, so they may afford more stuff.

I still don't understand what you're talking about.  What to you mean by "step in with its own money?"

Surely you understand that if, say, more people are losing jobs, the state expenses increase right?

[Martinus]

The guy is playing games again.  He is making one huge gamble that, when he presents his proposals later, they'll be accepted unconditionally.  He thinks the EU will cave in when faced with a Grexit or deal choice. 

Who knows, maybe he is right and there will be another Munich.

Good thing that Germany did not pull something like Munich. That would have completely destroyed any good will they had with the rest of Europe, so their debts would not be written off in the 1950s.

[Valmy]

Hey Marty who was responsible for that? Wasn't a European country.

Nice to hear the American Imperialist Ruthless Capitalistic Pigdog policies being so firmly embraced by leftists across Europe. It makes me wonder if the Guardian was cheering us on at the time.

[Zanza]

[Syt]

The guy is playing games again.  He is making one huge gamble that, when he presents his proposals later, they'll be accepted unconditionally.  He thinks the EU will cave in when faced with a Grexit or deal choice. 

Who knows, maybe he is right and there will be another Munich.

Good thing that Germany did not pull something like Munich. That would have completely destroyed any good will they had with the rest of Europe, so their debts would not be written off in the 1950s.

You're right, Greece should start a devastating war that brings together East and West to fight against them and results in a Cold War between the blocs with each side scrambling to bring "their Greeks" into the fold. Then we can write off their debts ten years after that war ended.

[Admiral Yi]

Surely you understand that if, say, more people are losing jobs, the state expenses increase right?

Shirley.  Is that what you mean by "step in with its own money?"  Paying unemployment benefits and the like?

[Martinus]

Surely you understand that if, say, more people are losing jobs, the state expenses increase right?

Shirley.  Is that what you mean by "step in with its own money?"  Paying unemployment benefits and the like?

Yeah. When people and companies fall on hard times, the state's expenses on social welfare (and other associated costs that, in the absence of poverty, are often met by the people themselves) increase.

[Zanza]

All true, Marty, but in Greece, outsized state expenses were and are part of the problem, not just a symptom of issues in the private economy that need to be compensated. In Greece, the state spending especially when expressed in clientelism, nepotism or other forms of corruption was and still is so inefficient by itself that it caused issues.

[Grey Fox]

While the greek have a spending problem. They have a way bigger problem.

A income problem. Too much un challenge fiscal evasion. That's what the EU should negotiate & push on. Forget the 96% avg on pension, forget the hundreds of dead pensionners. They need to fix tax loop holes & prosecute fiscal evasion.

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah. When people and companies fall on hard times, the state's expenses on social welfare (and other associated costs that, in the absence of poverty, are often met by the people themselves) increase.

I don't recall Greece experiencing any particularly notable economic problems prior to the collapse of Greek credit.  You would need a pretty monumental collapse in employment to justify a 19% deficit.

[Iormlund]

While the greek have a spending problem. They have a way bigger problem.

A income problem. Too much un challenge fiscal evasion. That's what the EU should negotiate & push on. Forget the 96% avg on pension, forget the hundreds of dead pensionners. They need to fix tax loop holes & prosecute fiscal evasion.

It's all the same problem, really. Why would you want to pay taxes when you know most of it will be syphoned away by corruption and nepotism? The problem in Greece is that the State is not so much a vehicle to provide services to citizens as a way to leech on them. It's going to be awfully hard to turn that mentality around.