Healthy 24-year-old granted right to die in Belgium

[The Brain]

I don't think the solution is blackface.

[Berkut]

I am amazed that 50% of the people here responded positively to this statement:

I believe people should be able to choose to euthanized for any reason.

Anyone? For any reason? Seriously?


So if some 18 year strolls into their doctors office and says "I want to kill myself because my cat died" the doctor should just write her up a prescription, have a nice day?


ANY REASON?

[Caliga]

modern Euro = libertine.  Duh.

[Maximus]

I am amazed that 50% of the people here responded positively to this statement:

I believe people should be able to choose to euthanized for any reason.

Anyone? For any reason? Seriously?


So if some 18 year strolls into their doctors office and says "I want to kill myself because my cat died" the doctor should just write her up a prescription, have a nice day?


ANY REASON?

That's probably more a function of the poll options:
"No"
"No"
"No"
"Hell no"
"YAS FOR ANY REASON"

[Admiral Yi]

Anyone? For any reason? Seriously?


So if some 18 year strolls into their doctors office and says "I want to kill myself because my cat died" the doctor should just write her up a prescription, have a nice day?


ANY REASON?

Sure.  We don't own that kids life.  Who are we to impose our wishes on what he does with it?

[crazy canuck]

This is where Libertarians really shine. 

[Ideologue]

Imo there are two problems in this case.  First, depression is a treatable condition.  It doesn't make sense to allow someone to kill themselves when the medical condition causing the suffering can be treated.  Second, one of the common symptoms of depression is suicidal ideation, as it was in this case.  If the wish to commit suicide is a symptom of the medical problem how can it ever be the case that the patient is making an informed decision to commit suicide by doctor?   

I've never been clear why the latter point of distinction matters.

Why does it matter what the organic causes of a desire for suicide are? If they want to, they want to.  If your mental disease causes you sufficient pain you wish to die, it makes little sense to say that it's irrational.

Thay said, the first point is better-taken, and if we lived in a world where individual lives were valuable to the group, it would be a winning argument for severe restrictions on access to assisted suicide.

[Ideologue]

This is where Libertarians really shine. 

And Statists agree.   Promotion of suicide gives society a chance to rid itself of it's unsustainable numbers without war or genocide or property damage.

Besides, it's not like we're talking about something ineffable here. Nobody lives forever and life is not full of infinite possibility, so why live in pain or keep going against the odds?

[crazy canuck]

Imo there are two problems in this case.  First, depression is a treatable condition.  It doesn't make sense to allow someone to kill themselves when the medical condition causing the suffering can be treated.  Second, one of the common symptoms of depression is suicidal ideation, as it was in this case.  If the wish to commit suicide is a symptom of the medical problem how can it ever be the case that the patient is making an informed decision to commit suicide by doctor?   

Why does it matter what the organic causes of a desire for suicide are? If they want to, they want to.  If your mental disease causes you sufficient pain you wish to die, it makes little sense to say that it's irrational.

Because if the judgment of the patient of what is "sufficient" is a symptom of the very thing they are being treated for then that judgment is necessarily suspect.

Besides, it's not like we're talking about something ineffable here. Nobody lives forever and life is not full of infinite possibility, so why live in pain or keep going against the odds?

Sounds like a good beginning for the script of Purge III

[garbon]

Imo there are two problems in this case.  First, depression is a treatable condition.  It doesn't make sense to allow someone to kill themselves when the medical condition causing the suffering can be treated.  Second, one of the common symptoms of depression is suicidal ideation, as it was in this case.  If the wish to commit suicide is a symptom of the medical problem how can it ever be the case that the patient is making an informed decision to commit suicide by doctor?   

Why does it matter what the organic causes of a desire for suicide are? If they want to, they want to.  If your mental disease causes you sufficient pain you wish to die, it makes little sense to say that it's irrational.

Because if the judgment of the patient of what is "sufficient" is a symptom of the very thing they are being treated for then that judgment is necessarily suspect.

So for how many years in a row should a person need to feel like dying before we'd consider it sufficient?

[crazy canuck]

Imo there are two problems in this case.  First, depression is a treatable condition.  It doesn't make sense to allow someone to kill themselves when the medical condition causing the suffering can be treated.  Second, one of the common symptoms of depression is suicidal ideation, as it was in this case.  If the wish to commit suicide is a symptom of the medical problem how can it ever be the case that the patient is making an informed decision to commit suicide by doctor?   

Why does it matter what the organic causes of a desire for suicide are? If they want to, they want to.  If your mental disease causes you sufficient pain you wish to die, it makes little sense to say that it's irrational.

Because if the judgment of the patient of what is "sufficient" is a symptom of the very thing they are being treated for then that judgment is necessarily suspect.

So for how many years in a row should a person need to feel like dying before we'd consider it sufficient?

I think that is the point.  The argument in this thread has been that the individual should be able to make the judgment.  But, to pick up on Berk's point, if the individual is afflicted by something which clearly impairs that judgment as is the situation in this case, some other process needs to be in place for making that decision.  It cannot be as simple as, "heh this kid with suicidal ideation wants to commit suicide.  Well, the patient is always right!"

 

[Martinus]

But ultimately, from that person's point of view, that's reality - whether the pain they feel is "real" or "just in their head", it doesn't matter - they feel it all the same. So, as I said earlier, the only condition should be whether the condition can be treated and whether the treatment is something the patient wishes to undergo.

I also never said that this should be something that can be decided on a whim, so please stop touting that straw man, CC and Berkut. The evaluation and "reflexion period" should be at least of the same degree (if not more robust) as with sex change for example. But ultimately if, after a period of counselling, evaluation and reflexion, the person still wants to do it, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to.

[crazy canuck]

But ultimately, from that person's point of view, that's reality - whether the pain they feel is "real" or "just in their head", it doesn't matter - they feel it all the same. So, as I said earlier, the only condition should be whether the condition can be treated and whether the treatment is something the patient wishes to undergo.

Why is the persons "point of view" important when their point of view is directly impacted and a creation of the very thing which is being treated.  Without the depression there would be no suicidal ideation.  Without the suicidal ideation there would be no wish to die. 

[Berkut]

This is where a healthy and reasonable respect for personal liberty diverges into just basic fucking crazy.

Liberty is predicated on the concept that people are best able to decide for themselves what is in their own best interests, or at least that in general, this is true compared to the alternative of the state or society making those choices for them.

When the individual is making choices that are clearly NOT in their own best interests, it is very much the case that we step in in a variety of different ways. We do not let children play with matches, even if they really, really want to - that isn't "hypocrisy" because we are restricting their liberty, that is having the rational and sane understanding of the limits of a governing principle under the particulars of actual circumstances. In this case, the realization that children lack the complete capacity to understand what is actually in their own best interests better than their parents.

That exact same principle applies when someone asks to destroy themselves - by definition, that is a request that has a very, very low chance of actually being in that persons best interests, even if they genuinely beleive that it is - just like the child, the mentally ill are not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions, and it is perfectly reasonable to judge that those desires are not in that person's actual best interests.

Now, to top all that off, we are talking not about interfering in their ability to take their lives, which would be one thing, *but actively assisting them in doing so!*

The demand that you use the power of the state to help people destroy themselves as a test for True Libertarian makes me vomit. It makes me start to understand why some people hold the term "libertarian" in such contempt.

[Ideologue]

But ultimately, from that person's point of view, that's reality - whether the pain they feel is "real" or "just in their head", it doesn't matter - they feel it all the same. So, as I said earlier, the only condition should be whether the condition can be treated and whether the treatment is something the patient wishes to undergo.

Why is the persons "point of view" important when their point of view is directly impacted and a creation of the very thing which is being treated.  Without the depression there would be no suicidal ideation.  Without the suicidal ideation there would be no wish to die.

Might as well say, "Without that broken spine, there would be no wish to die."

This doesn't mean treatment shouldn't be undertaken first, but treatment sometimes doesn't take.