Healthy 24-year-old granted right to die in Belgium

[Berkut]

But we do at least try to prevent people from killing themselves in some gruesome way.

Hell, the argument that people kill themselves in the US with guns at a ridiculously greater rate than anywhere else is one of the most common arguments against ready access to guns in the US. Study after study has shown that most people who attempt suicide don't actually want to kill themselves if they are prevented or fail.

There is nothing at all hypocritical about my stance.

Ironically, those who oppose assisted suicide in the cases that we all DO agree on (someone with a terminal, painful condition making their quality of life inhumane) did so on precisely this argument - that once we allow doctors to kill people in the "obvious" cases, people would start arguing that we must do so in not so obvious cases. And here we are - now you are a monster if you don't help someone kill themselves because their boyfriend dumped them?

[The Brain]

That would seem to absolutely preclude anyone from choosing euthenasia while being physically healthy. Mental illness, almost by definition, precludes a sound mind in general, and a desire to destroy yourself is almost (to me) definitionally indicative of a significant impairment in an ability to think reasonably and rationally.

I disagree with your assessment that someone who wants to kill themselves but is physically healthy must be mentally ill.

I am surprised that you would consider someone in such extreme mental anguish that they feel their only recourse is suicide to be mentally healthy.

Isn't that the very definition of a mental illness?

Fine, let me rephrase - only the kind of mental illness that removes or significantly impedes cognitive capacity should preclude one from being eligible for assisted suicide.

Then we are agreed.

How do you tell if a mental illness has significantly impeded cognitive capacity?

Would making clearly irrational choices be considered evidence that cognitive capacity has been impeded?

Should there not be some kind of assessment made by a competent healthcare professional (in this case a psychiatrist) to determine if there is significant cognitive impairment as a result of their illness?

I suspect that most psychiatrists would consider "I want to kill myself even though there is nothing physically wrong with me" to be evidence that a person is not thinking with complete clarity and soundness of mind.

Mental illness and physical illness are NOT the same thing.

These kinds of assessments are done all the time. If a person is deemed to be unable to make decisions then that has all kinds of consequences (loss of driver's license, loss of security clearance etc etc etc). As long as a person isn't found unfit to make decisions then I don't see a problem.

[Caliga]

Well, maybe the doctors are choosing the lesser of two evils.  If she really wants to kill herself, they may as well make sure it gets done right.  DIY suicides in countries without widespread firearm ownership are notoriously unreliable.

Why?  Just burn charcoal in a room.  Make sure the windows are closed.

That's how Brad Delp did it.

[The Brain]

I also suspect that most psychiatrist know that mental suffering can be as bad as physical suffering. The "walk it off" school of thought has been discredited I think.

[Syt]

I also suspect that most psychiatrist know that mental suffering can be as bad as physical suffering. The "walk it off" school of thought has been discredited I think.

You tell that to our insurances when you try to get treatment financed. If you get a 25% payback from the insurance you're lucky.

[The Brain]

I also suspect that most psychiatrist know that mental suffering can be as bad as physical suffering. The "walk it off" school of thought has been discredited I think.

You tell that to our insurances when you try to get treatment financed. If you get a 25% payback from the insurance you're lucky.

I don't follow.

[Syt]

I also suspect that most psychiatrist know that mental suffering can be as bad as physical suffering. The "walk it off" school of thought has been discredited I think.

You tell that to our insurances when you try to get treatment financed. If you get a 25% payback from the insurance you're lucky.

I don't follow.

Well, in Germany and Austria, insurance companies in general consider mental illness (unless you need to be committed or suffer from a similarly severe condition) as a minor thing and cover not nearly as much as in physical treatments.

[The Brain]

I also suspect that most psychiatrist know that mental suffering can be as bad as physical suffering. The "walk it off" school of thought has been discredited I think.

You tell that to our insurances when you try to get treatment financed. If you get a 25% payback from the insurance you're lucky.

I don't follow.

Well, in Germany and Austria, insurance companies in general consider mental illness (unless you need to be committed or suffer from a similarly severe condition) as a minor thing and cover not nearly as much as in physical treatments.

Sounds like a business decision to me.

[crazy canuck]

Imo there are two problems in this case.  First, depression is a treatable condition.  It doesn't make sense to allow someone to kill themselves when the medical condition causing the suffering can be treated.  Second, one of the common symptoms of depression is suicidal ideation, as it was in this case.  If the wish to commit suicide is a symptom of the medical problem how can it ever be the case that the patient is making an informed decision to commit suicide by doctor?   

[Razgovory]

Don't studies show that the vast majority of people with failed suicide attempts don't make another attempt?

I don't know, I would be surprised if that's true.  Now, I believe the vast majority of people who make a successful suicide attempt don't make additional attempts.

[crazy canuck]

Don't studies show that the vast majority of people with failed suicide attempts don't make another attempt?

I don't know, I would be surprised if that's true.  Now, I believe the vast majority of people who make a successful suicide attempt don't make additional attempts.

Syt is correct.  Most people who make failed attempts never make a successful attempt although there may be numerous attempts by one person.  Most unsuccessful suicide attempts are a cry for help.  Also, the more difficult it is to commit suicide the less chance it will be attempted.  That is the rationale for constructing jumping barriers on bridges.

This case is troublesome for both reasons.

[Razgovory]

This is one of those things I would just assume they keep in Europe. Doctors should not be in the business of killing people. The unintended consequences of such a thing are just too extreme, especially when we get a situation where Marty is saying every emo teen and twenty something can get a doctors note for TEH LIBERTY. Just what we want our limited medical resources going towards.

If they want to off themselves then we have plenty of easily legally obtained fire arms and classes to teach them how to use them. No need to pull the poor doctors into doing something that is not their job.

If suicide is considered a "treatment" for mental illnesses, then it's only a matter of time before it's encouraged.  I really wouldn't like to find out that the only treatment options paid for by my insurance involves a rope and a short fall.

[DGuller]

This is one of those things I would just assume they keep in Europe. Doctors should not be in the business of killing people. The unintended consequences of such a thing are just too extreme, especially when we get a situation where Marty is saying every emo teen and twenty something can get a doctors note for TEH LIBERTY. Just what we want our limited medical resources going towards.

If they want to off themselves then we have plenty of easily legally obtained fire arms and classes to teach them how to use them. No need to pull the poor doctors into doing something that is not their job.

If suicide is considered a "treatment" for mental illnesses, then it's only a matter of time before it's encouraged.  I really wouldn't like to find out that the only treatment options paid for by my insurance involves a rope and a short fall.

I don't think that hanging is going to replace lethal injection any time soon.

[Razgovory]

It's not an execution, but a treatment option.  It's simply a budget priced one.

[alfred russel]

A 24 year old western european female probably has a life expectancy approaching 60 more years. It seems rather premature to think that by 2070 or so no treatment for her depression, extant or to be developed, will be successful.

The article says that life threatening conditions on their own qualify for euthenasia, but that seems rather self fufilling in any mental illness involving suicidal thoughts.