The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

I really like the way the NYT is just picking fights with every European country on a one by one basis right now

Marlene Daut
@FictionsofHaiti
If Napoleon Bonaparte—a racist, genocidal, warmonger who restored slavery— is a symbol of modern France, then what does that say about France?

My latest @nytimes
https://t.co/RTeBzGNPAJ?amp=1

[Barrister]

I really like the way the NYT is just picking fights with every European country on a one by one basis right now

Marlene Daut
@FictionsofHaiti
If Napoleon Bonaparte—a racist, genocidal, warmonger who restored slavery— is a symbol of modern France, then what does that say about France?

My latest @nytimes
https://t.co/RTeBzGNPAJ?amp=1

Some fights are worth having. 

[mongers]

I'm planning on euthanasing myself, step one:

continue posting on Languish = gradually losing will to live.

[Legbiter]

And we're off. We have a volcanic eruption on the Reykjanes peninsula.

[Sheilbh]

[Legbiter]

It's close to Fagradalsfjall. People in a nearby fishing village can see the red glow quite well.

[Valmy]

I really like the way the NYT is just picking fights with every European country on a one by one basis right now

Marlene Daut
@FictionsofHaiti
If Napoleon Bonaparte—a racist, genocidal, warmonger who restored slavery— is a symbol of modern France, then what does that say about France?

My latest @nytimes
https://t.co/RTeBzGNPAJ?amp=1

What it says is "it's complicated"

I don't get this. I mean we just recently supported genocide in Yemen. What's worse? Having a symbol that did bad things 200 years ago or currently doing bad things?

Granted France is probably also currently doing bad things...

Edit: Though actually who was Napoleon trying to commit genocide against? The Spanish? Is that what they are going with there?

[Legbiter]

Small and remote. Just perfect.

[DGuller]

I just saw the weirdest sight out of my window.  I just saw a series of red lights fly over the Hudson, pretty low, with some engine noise.  They were spaced out quite a bit, so it wasn't just a single plane that for whatever reason had 4-5 red lights as opposed to a red and a green.  Should I be cutting back on LSD, or did I see something real?  If so, what could it possibly be? 

[FunkMonk]

Just saw Iceland's entry for Eurovision this year and yep, both my wife and I are pulling for them 

Nice volcano too

[Valmy]

It's close to Fagradalsfjall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ersOzJQOrUs

Just for reference

[Oexmelin]

Edit: Though actually who was Napoleon trying to commit genocide against? The Spanish? Is that what they are going with there?

Marlene Daut is a scholar of Haiti, and it is entirely appropriate to speak of attempted genocide in this case. The plan was to reconquer the island, and to wipe out the black population - entirely too contaminated with the spirit of liberty - and start over with newly enslaved people. 

[celedhring]

It's close to Fagradalsfjall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ersOzJQOrUs

Just for reference

We are blessed by the fact Wales isn't a volcanic region.

[Valmy]

Edit: Though actually who was Napoleon trying to commit genocide against? The Spanish? Is that what they are going with there?

Marlene Daut is a scholar of Haiti, and it is entirely appropriate to speak of attempted genocide in this case. The plan was to reconquer the island, and to wipe out the black population - entirely too contaminated with the spirit of liberty - and start over with newly enslaved people. 

Ok you can't drop a bomb like that on me without some more information. That was the plan? I mean the plan, as I currently understand it, was completely insane and out of touch with reality, which is what happens when you get all your colonial information from the Grand Blancs, I thought the idea was to swoop in and arrest all the leaders and deport them and then quickly and easily reimpose slavery. And even that plan was secret, the expedition was designed to appear both overwhelming but friendly to trick Toussaint L'Ouverture and company into giving themselves up. Was there a secret secret plan? I mean Napoleon had huge plans for controlling the Gulf of Mexico that was so out of touch with reality that I have a hard time thinking his plans in Haiti were not similarly wishfully thinking. Wiping out everybody and repopulating the colony would require an actual accurate picture of what kind of extreme actions would be necessary to restore slavery to Haiti but then that kind of action would require resources far in excess of even the massive LeClerc expedition.

But if that was the plan then why go through the whole charade of capturing the officers? Why wouldn't that be in LeClerc's secret orders? And once LeClerc was in Haiti and everything started going to shit he wrote a letter to Napoleon saying that essentially in order to fulfill his mission he had to conduct a genocide, but I don't think even in that letter did he actually say everybody had to be exterminated. If that was already the plan why would LeClerc write a letter to Napoleon telling him this step had to be taken? Further that is generally recognized as a moment when LeClerc snapped and he died shortly after.

Surely, the plan was what was done over in Guadeloupe, the capture and deportation of the leaders and the re-enslavement of the population. If liberty meant all the blacks should be massacred then why did that not take place in Guadeloupe? They were also emancipated.

But maybe Napoleon did receive LeClerc's letter and took it seriously and ordered a genocide but I am not familiar with such an order.

Not that merely wanting to stop short of genocide and re-enslave a free population is some kind of defensible position. It is not like what happened on Guadeloupe and Haiti were not atrocities on their own even without a plan for genocide.

But anyway certainly Napoleon is not remembered as some kind of humanitarian or noble person. He is loved because he brought national glory and maybe the Code Civil not because he represents some kind of Republican or humanitarian virtue. It is like Genghis Khan being the national hero of Mongolia and being on their money. He kicked ass. That is why he is a folk hero and why it is complicated.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Small and remote. Just perfect.

Like a pressure release valve, a good outcome