The Off Topic Topic

[crazy canuck]

There was no Canada in 1812 so that doesn't count.

Yes there was. Two of them in fact.

War in Afghanistan is not over. Not sure what a win or a loss would look like there but then I never really understood our war aims besides 'not too fucked up so we can leave without looking too foolish'.

There were colonies of England of course. But there was no nation of Canada.   

Also the war aim of the Canadian forces were pretty clear.  Defend the province in which they were stationed from attacks.  They were one of the few forces actually stationed where there was fighting.

[alfred russel]

Yes there was. Two of them in fact.

War in Afghanistan is not over. Not sure what a win or a loss would look like there but then I never really understood our war aims besides 'not too fucked up so we can leave without looking too foolish'.

I stand by the Iraq and Afghanistan wars should be allied/american victories by any reasonable standard. Part of the stated mission included giving the countries a shot at a stable democracy, and that didn't work out, but at the same time the US had some lofty ambitions in WWI as well and 15 years later Hitler was running the show in Germany.

Saddam Hussein was hanged, Baghdad occupied, and power transitioned to something like a democratic state. In Afghanistan, the taliban was toppled, Kabul occupied, and power transitioned to something like a democratic state (LOL). Barring a taliban comeback, neither Hussein or the Taliban can be considered the victors. The fact we are probably worse off for the adventures shouldn't be much of a determining factor--unless you want to write most winners out of the history books, since war is a profoundly negative sum game.

[Valmy]

There were colonies of England of course. But there was no nation of Canada.   

Also the war aim of the Canadian forces were pretty clear.  Defend the province in which they were stationed from attacks.  They were one of the few forces actually stationed where there was fighting.

Well we will have to agree to disagree there. Canada was an evolution of British Colonies, not a revolutionary movement. The point you want to say they ceased to be BRITISH colonies and became Canada is fairly arbitrary. 

Are you saying Canada was victorious in Afghanistan?

[crazy canuck]

There were colonies of England of course. But there was no nation of Canada.   

Also the war aim of the Canadian forces were pretty clear.  Defend the province in which they were stationed from attacks.  They were one of the few forces actually stationed where there was fighting.

Well we will have to agree to disagree there. Canada was an evolution of British Colonies, not a revolutionary movement. The point you want to say they ceased to be BRITISH colonies and became Canada is fairly arbitrary. 

Are you saying Canada was victorious in Afghanistan?

So, the only way a country can be formed on a certain date is through revolution?  That makes no sense.  But I suppose through a very narrow American lens it has some logic.  Just not sure what it is.  One would have to be entirely ignorant of what occurred leading up to and during the Confederation conferences to try to make that point.  I would not have expected it of you.  But then again you seem to know a lot more about French history then you do Canadian history.

And yes, Canada was very successful in its mission - in large measure because of American support on the front lines.

[Grey Fox]

The west didn't lose afghanistan

Is that what you are implying Valmy? That we lost?

[Valmy]

So, the only way a country can be formed on a certain date is through revolution?  That makes no sense.

LOL no I did not mean that literally of course that would, indeed, make no sense. I was just saying it is not that discrete, a revolutionary moment where everything changed not actually a Revolution. I do think Canada was in existence in 1812 if not in its mature political form. But I do talk about actual revolutions a lot so I appreciate why you were confused. Probably a poor choice of words on my part.

And yes, Canada was very successful in its mission - in large measure because of American support on the front lines.

Ah ok then.

[Valmy]

The west didn't lose afghanistan

Is that what you are implying Valmy? That we lost?

No I thought that was the implication being made. 'Canada has never lost a war' and the response is 'you forgot Afghanistan'. I was not clear if he just failed to mention Aghanistan or if the argument was that he could no longer claim Canada was undefeated due to Afghanistan.

[mongers]

I just baked for the first time in my life. Delicious buns was the result.

Congratulations, however late you are to the party. 

Over here every other person seems to be going baking mad, due to a popular tv series. 

[crazy canuck]

LOL no I did not mean that literally of course that would, indeed, make no sense. I was just saying it is not that discrete, a revolutionary moment where everything changed not actually a Revolution. I do think Canada was in existence in 1812 if not in its mature political form. But I do talk about actual revolutions a lot so I appreciate why you were confused. Probably a poor choice of words on my part.

There was a lot that occurred between 1812 and Confederation.  I am not sure how one can consider Canada to exist as a nation in 1812.  For example, the main European hero of that conflict was Brock - someone born and raised in Britain and here waiting for a continental posting. Even at the time of Confederation the question of whether the colonies would become a country was very much debated.  It was no sure thing that hindsight now distorts.  The fact that Canada did become a nation at confederation was a revolutionary moment without the need for a war.

[Barrister]

LOL no I did not mean that literally of course that would, indeed, make no sense. I was just saying it is not that discrete, a revolutionary moment where everything changed not actually a Revolution. I do think Canada was in existence in 1812 if not in its mature political form. But I do talk about actual revolutions a lot so I appreciate why you were confused. Probably a poor choice of words on my part.

There was a lot that occurred between 1812 and Confederation.  I am not sure how one can consider Canada to exist as a nation in 1812.  For example, the main European hero of that conflict was Brock - someone born and raised in Britain and here waiting for a continental posting. Even at the time of Confederation the question of whether the colonies would become a country was very much debated.  It was no sure thing that hindsight now distorts.  The fact that Canada did become a nation at confederation was a revolutionary moment without the need for a war.

But in 1867 they would have very much denied that they were doing anything so radical.  Canada was still a part of the Empire, and the Union flag was still our flag.

You could just as easily argue that 1931 is the year we became a nation (or, at a stretch, 1982).

[Grey Fox]

The west didn't lose afghanistan

Is that what you are implying Valmy? That we lost?

No I thought that was the implication being made. 'Canada has never lost a war' and the response is 'you forgot Afghanistan'. I was not clear if he just failed to mention Aghanistan or if the argument was that he could no longer claim Canada was undefeated due to Afghanistan.

I forgot about it.

[crazy canuck]

LOL no I did not mean that literally of course that would, indeed, make no sense. I was just saying it is not that discrete, a revolutionary moment where everything changed not actually a Revolution. I do think Canada was in existence in 1812 if not in its mature political form. But I do talk about actual revolutions a lot so I appreciate why you were confused. Probably a poor choice of words on my part.

There was a lot that occurred between 1812 and Confederation.  I am not sure how one can consider Canada to exist as a nation in 1812.  For example, the main European hero of that conflict was Brock - someone born and raised in Britain and here waiting for a continental posting. Even at the time of Confederation the question of whether the colonies would become a country was very much debated.  It was no sure thing that hindsight now distorts.  The fact that Canada did become a nation at confederation was a revolutionary moment without the need for a war.

But in 1867 they would have very much denied that they were doing anything so radical.  Canada was still a part of the Empire, and the Union flag was still our flag.

You could just as easily argue that 1931 is the year we became a nation (or, at a stretch, 1982).

There may be quibbles post 1867 but one could never argue that nation existed pre 1867 which is what we were debating 

[Valmy]

There may be quibbles post 1867 but one could never argue that nation existed pre 1867 which is what we were debating 

Well surely the Quebec nation was in place in 1812. That is a pretty foundational part of Canada. A lot of the English speakers had been in the New World for generations so were not exactly Britons.

[Barrister]

There may be quibbles post 1867 but one could never argue that nation existed pre 1867 which is what we were debating 

Well surely the Quebec nation was in place in 1812. That is a pretty foundational part of Canada. A lot of the English speakers had been in the New World for generations so were not exactly Britons.

Not really at that stage.  They were still very, very new colonies.  Take York, which ultimately became Toronto.  Founded 1793 - less than 20 years earlier.

[crazy canuck]

There may be quibbles post 1867 but one could never argue that nation existed pre 1867 which is what we were debating 

Well surely the Quebec nation was in place in 1812. That is a pretty foundational part of Canada. A lot of the English speakers had been in the New World for generations so were not exactly Britons.

That is actually the main flaw in your argument.  To the extent there was something which could be identified as a nation, it was the French nation of what would become Quebec.  That nation of Canada is very different - as our Quebec friends tell us from time to time to this day 

And the large number of English speakers that later made up Canada were to significant extent American loyalists.